Gaming Zone > Unreal Tournament 2004
Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
holyspam:
Making this post public for discussion.
If I don't post it today, I will keep forgetting.
quick summary:
High priority:
==========================================================================================
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Balancer + Challenge mode - game breaker combo[/b] - [Done-testing]
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-> winning team gets ahead by 3 points, score is 9-6
-> challenge mode means 140hp for winning team and 170hp for losing team at this point
-> team that had 3 losing rounds, now has lower average PPR due to lower performance
-> balancer is triggered and balances the PPR
-> a good player is swapped to the losing team
-> losing team wins 3 rounds in a row, because 125-140 starting HP means you're dead with 1 shot
-> losing team is now full of adrenaline because they easily won the few rounds
-> losing team proceeds to win the game in 70% of games
>>> Result <<<
1. The player skill was not balanced
2. The conditions to achieve victory were not balanced (one team had lower starting HP)
3. People whine about the balancer swapping incorrect players
4. The team that just lost 3 rounds in a row, probably spent all their adr trying to win the round, but the team that won 3 rounds has more adr to spend
5. The score number was balanced! 9-9 is balanced!#win
My suggestions:
Disable challenge mode completely
- offers nothing but dumb kills, stats that do not reflect reality, breaks the balancer and creates easy "comebacks"
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Challenge mode rework: [On hold]
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-> takes away HP based on won rounds, that is 5 per round, up to 45 when your team score is 9-X
-> takes additonal away HP from winning team, that is 5 per extra round that your team is ahead compared to the enemy team
-> allows "weaker" team to win
-> inflates PPR of lower skilled players
-> reduces PPR of higher skilled players
>>> Result <<<
Most players are "compressed" into the same PPR range between 6-12, instead of a range from 5-20
Makes the PPR scale non-linear.
Suggestion:
Disable or adjust formula
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Balancer: [Done partial]
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-> works perfect in picking the correct numbers according to its programming, including when and where to swap
>>> Result <<<
-> expects linear scaling
-> takes the average PPR and in most cases does a good job with the numbers
Suggestions:
Maybe tweak the HistoricalPPR/CurrentPPR weight formula and maybe add priority picking/exclusions - Done
Add the (thaws+kills)/deaths ratio into calculation for similar PPR and use that for balance, see how it works.
==========================================================================================
Lower priority issues:
==========================================================================================
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Equalizer: [ToDo]
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-> Randomly swaps a player even if they're alive when someone leaves
>>> Result <<<
Breaks the game for the swapped player
Suggest changing the behaviour or disabling it
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Bots: - [ToDo]
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They are useful for low player counts, but they are completely OP and hard to hit.
Suggestion:
They should be removed from the game when player counts are 12 or higher.
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Bio-camping: [On hold]
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The way spawn protection works now, it checks for any nearby teammates
>>> Result <<<
In the olden days, we used to always get spawn protection after being thawed and you would thaw nearby teammates too, without losing it.
Then you could resurrect - usually from the adr received by thawing them - and you would still not lose spawn protection.
We made necro combo disable spawn protection.
Spawn protected people are unable to thaw frozen teammates next to them, unless they move around a bit.
Disabled spawn protection for grouped people
Some are abusing this, to land 1 kill and then die.
Shooting the frozen player and dealing full dmg like you shot an alive player and killing the player next to him is unfair.
Suggestion:
Force the biocamper to shoot the person being thawed, not shoot at the frozen body and benefit.
- Only disable spawn protection for more than 3 teammates nearby.
- Disable splash damage for frozen pawns. (make the frozen bodies react like objects, instead of players)
==========================================================================================
Other:
==========================================================================================
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Available maps: - [On hold]
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The alternative maplist has been in play for 3 years now, the people have chosen their favorite maps, shockingly, it's the same maps that were chosen over the last 20 years by every other server.
Suggestion:
Retire the never played maps and bring back the original classic maps (example: Rankin-FE, Lea original, Under original, Grendel), the community likes them for a reason.
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Overtime suicides: - [On hold]
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Currently in overtime you need to suicide to save yourself from dying.
>>> Result <<<
Loss of score, slow thaw
Suggestion:
Change the way suicide works in overtime
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Necro combo priority - [Done]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently it's random/oldest thaw priority
>>> Result <<<
People get resurrected when thawed at 90-95%.
Dead teammates stay dead - no chance of thaw unless someone resurrects
Suggestion:
Pick players who are dead first, then oldest death, check for completion (don't resurrect at 80%+)
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Client Reporting rate - [Done]
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++ Added fallback to default logic as a player-configurable option
** Changed "Desired Net Update Rate" name to "Client reporting rate" as it reflects better what it does
++ Added slider with 3 levels for the new logic
Slider position:
* Left - minimum rate allowed by the server
* Middle - equal to half of the configured framerate (FPS * 0.5)
* Right - equal to the configured framerate
The final value is set between the server configured Min/Max values upon joining, and also the configured Netspeed divided by 100:
* (MinRate < Final_Reporting_Rate < MaxRate) && ( MinRate < Final_Reporting_Rate < Netspeed * 0.01) The configured minimum is 84(or 12 milliseconds)
The configured maximum is 333(or 3 milliseconds)
Example with 200FPS in your ini and 20.000 netspeed
Left position:
* 84 updates/second - update every 12 millisecondsMiddle position:
* 101 updates/second - update every 10 millisecondsRight position:
* 201 updates/second - update every 5 milliseconds
Netspeed:
* 20.000 netspeed limits the max rate to 200/sec
* 10.001 netspeed limits the max rate to 100/sec
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- Fix lg hit registration logic - [WIP]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Add some extra messages for spawn protection, healing etc - WIP
Kuha:
I agree Challenge mode needs to go. u have my vote for that and Quadros so thats 2 already.
Blub:
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---Making this post public for discussion.
If I don't post it today, I will keep forgetting.
quick summary:
==========================================================================================
High priority issue:
==========================================================================================
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Challenge mode:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-> takes away HP based on won rounds, that is 5 per round, up to 45 when your team score is 9-X
-> takes additonal away HP from winning team, that is 5 per extra round that your team is ahead compared to the enemy team
-> allows "weaker" team to win
-> inflates PPR of lower skilled players
-> reduces PPR of higher skilled players
>>> Result <<<
Most players are "compressed" into the same PPR range between 6-12, instead of a range from 5-20
Makes the PPR scale non-linear.
Suggestion:
Disable or adjust formula
--- End quote ---
I mostly agree to this point, even though I am torn between plainly disabling challenge mode or influencing the result by changing the formula.
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---
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Balancer:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-> works perfect in picking the correct numbers according to its programming, including when and where to swap
>>> Result <<<
-> expects linear scaling
-> takes the average PPR and in most cases does a good job with the numbers
Suggestion:
Leave as it is, maybe tweak the HistoricalPPR/CurrentPPR weight formula and maybe add priority picking/exclusions
--- End quote ---
Technically the balancer works fine and does what she should be. My main issue with it is that it balances too often and especially late game switches are really annoying me lately. For me it should be set a tad less sensitive and if technically possible (without storing too much data what might cause issues otherwise) there should be a limit of how often a player should be switched, for example maximum two times per game.
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Balancer + Challenge mode - game breaker combo
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-> winning team gets ahead by 3 points, score is 9-6
-> challenge mode means 140hp for winning team and 170hp for losing team at this point
-> team that had 3 losing rounds, now has lower average PPR due to lower performance
-> balancer is triggered and balances the PPR
-> a good player is swapped to the losing team
-> losing team wins 3 rounds in a row, because 125-140 starting HP means you're dead with 1 shot
-> losing team is now full of adrenaline because they easily won the few rounds
-> losing team proceeds to win the game in 70% of games
>>> Result <<<
1. The player skill was not balanced
2. The conditions to achieve victory were not balanced (one team had lower starting HP)
3. People whine about the balancer swapping incorrect players
4. The team that just lost 3 rounds in a row, probably spent all their adr trying to win the round, but the team that won 3 rounds has more adr to spend
5. The score number was balanced! 9-9 is balanced!#win
My suggestions:
Disable challenge mode completely
- offers nothing but dumb kills, stats that do not reflect reality, breaks the balancer and creates easy "comebacks"
Add the (thaws+kills)/deaths ratio into calculation for similar PPR and use that for balance, see how it works.
--- End quote ---
While I was not exactly sure about the points above I more or less completely agree with this point. Comebacks have become the standard nowadays because of the problems described. I would definitely prefer to change the ppr calculation because it could maybe help getting a bit more freon into the game again.
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---
==========================================================================================
Lower priority issues:
==========================================================================================
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Equalizer:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-> Randomly swaps a player even if they're alive when someone leaves
>>> Result <<<
Breaks the game for the swapped player
Suggest changing the behaviour or disabling it
--- End quote ---
I agree with this one, change the player after the round, that is enough to balance.
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---
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Bots:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are useful for low player counts, but they are completely OP and hard to hit.
Suggestion:
They should be removed from the game when player counts are 12 or higher.
--- End quote ---
I am really unsure about this one. On the one hand the bot is causing problems (even though that is not always for the team he is playing for) at the same time I don't know if missing the bot really results in "equal" teams. Also it would be interessting to see how this would affect the balancer.
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bio-camping:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The way spawn protection works now, it checks for any nearby teammates
>>> Result <<<
In the olden days, we used to always get spawn protection after being thawed and you would thaw nearby teammates too, without losing it.
Then you could resurrect - usually from the adr received by thawing them - and you would still not lose spawn protection.
We made necro combo disable spawn protection.
Spawn protected people are unable to thaw frozen teammates next to them, unless they move around a bit.
Disabled spawn protection for grouped people
Some are abusing this, to land 1 kill and then die.
Shooting the frozen player and dealing full dmg like you shot an alive player and killing the player next to him is unfair.
Suggestion:
Force the biocamper to shoot the person being thawed, not shoot at the frozen body and benefit.
- Only disable spawn protection for more than 3 teammates nearby.
- Disable splash damage for frozen pawns. (make the frozen bodies react like objects, instead of players)
--- End quote ---
I definitely agree with the idea to disable the spawn protection for more than three teammates below. From what I understood about the disabling of the splash damage I would say this needs testing, but I see a lot of potential about this one.
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---
==========================================================================================
Other:
==========================================================================================
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Available maps:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The alternative maplist has been in play for 3 years now, the people have chosen their favorite maps, shockingly, it's the same maps that were chosen over the last 20 years by every other server.
Suggestion:
Retire the never played maps and bring back the original classic maps (example: Rankin-FE, Lea original, Under original, Grendel), the community likes them for a reason.
--- End quote ---
I definitely agree with this point, maybe we could have the alternative map-list with these maps and then add a couple of maps from time to time to that list so ppl could try other maps if they really want to. At the moment the list is filled with way too many maps that are rarely played.
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---
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Overtime suicides:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently in overtime you need to suicide to save yourself from dying.
>>> Result <<<
Loss of score, slow thaw
Suggestion:
Change the way suicide works in overtime
--- End quote ---
Given that suicide in overtime is a strategic decision, I totally agree with this point.
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Necro combo priority
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently it's random/oldest thaw priority
>>> Result <<<
People get resurrected when thawed at 90-95%.
Dead teammates stay dead - no chance of thaw unless someone resurrects
Suggestion:
Pick players who are dead first, then oldest death, check for completion (don't resurrect at 80%+)
--- End quote ---
Definitely agree with this one.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Change "Desired Net Update Rate" name to "Client tickrate" and change options from a slider to Full, Half, Minimum and Stock - WIP
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Fix lg hit registration logic - WIP
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Add some extra messages for spawn protection, healing etc - WIP
[/quote]
Overall I think there are a lot of good ideas in this post - what do the others think?
Piglet:
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---Disable Challenge mode or adjust formula
--- End quote ---
Remove challenge mode, then probably need to change thawing back to 3spn thawing logic: you thaw with the thawer's health or the average player health.
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---Suggestion:
Balancer: Leave as it is, maybe tweak the HistoricalPPR/CurrentPPR weight formula and maybe add priority picking/exclusions
--- End quote ---
Suggestion: Add in a check on player count - PPR for n players, and possibly even "this map" at particular player count. Contrast or Goose you can get extremely high player counts and so massive PPR. I got over 22 PPR as at the end of one map yesterday. That doesn't translate to a 3v3.
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---Add the (thaws+kills)/deaths ratio into calculation for similar PPR and use that for balance, see how it works.
--- End quote ---
Sounds complex. The lack of it in the calculation results in some interesting maps (killers vs thawers at about the same PPR average)
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---Equalizer:
Suggest changing the behaviour or disabling it
--- End quote ---
Need specifics of how it would work. I can give you the code to fix. It's more complex than it looks...
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---Bots:
They are useful for low player counts, but they are completely OP and hard to hit.
Suggestion:
They should be removed from the game when player counts are 12 or higher.
--- End quote ---
I find them easy to hit but lethal up close! It sort of evens out
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---Bio-camping:
Suggestion:
- Disable splash damage for frozen pawns. (make the frozen bodies react like objects, instead of players)
--- End quote ---
Should be possible. I like it. Give me some code for that? Perhaps configurable radius so we can tweak it?
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---Available maps:
Retire the never played maps and bring back the original classic maps (example: Rankin-FE, Lea original, Under original, Grendel), the community likes them for a reason.
--- End quote ---
There are good maps out there. It would be nice if someone was willing to work through them to help identify / tweak maps that might work.
I've added Rankin-FE, NewAge-FE (will work for small player count) and UCantHide-FE (which will be a silly map for low numbers sometimes).
Grendel is the biggest pile of shite out there for Freon.
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---Overtime suicides:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently in overtime you need to suicide to save yourself from dying.
--- End quote ---
That's how it should be. Suggestion, if you're on the team with more live teammates make it even more slow in proportion to the player count difference. If it's 8 v 1 then it should take a really really long time to thaw. As the team numbers get closer, then thaw faster.
--- Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54 ---Overtime suicides:
Necro combo priority
Currently it's random/oldest thaw priority
People get resurrected when thawed at 90-95%.
Dead teammates stay dead - no chance of thaw unless someone resurrects
Suggestion:Pick players who are dead first, then oldest death, check for completion (don't resurrect at 80%+)
--- End quote ---
The current rule is to select the frozen/dead player who has been frozen/dead the longest of anyone in that state. If you're the player who died before any remaining frozen player was frozen then it will choose you.
Dead players should possibly be first in the list
Not sure about the 80%+ part. You have that information that someone is 80+ on the screen. You could wait. I see people using res on the team when it's 7v1 and they're on the team with 7 live players. You shouldn't "fix stupid".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Change "Desired Net Update Rate" name to "Client tickrate" and change options from a slider to Full, Half, Minimum and Stock - WIP
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Fix lg hit registration logic - WIP
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Add some extra messages for spawn protection, healing etc - WIP
Krellsan:
Jeez. Maybe you shouldn't fix something that isn't broken? And maybe for example create a vote on these parameters? Apparently just leaving everything "as it be" is not an option.
Why not just divide the servers into kindergarten and professionals-tryharders. Something alike - u shall not pass if ur ppr lower than 10! 8! above! lower! Add some mightiest bots there for creating a crowd if there not many ppl online. And then we will see which server have more online and on which one situation is healthier and friendlier. Not everyone here wants to be a grand achiever or instantly do it in a competition mode. Jeez, dudes. With these settings U literally pull out, throwing overboard specifically me, and some other people, who just can't reach your skill. My complaints on this freon is just only about "suicidal label", which you can get with hitting ur frozen teammate. That bug is really awful. Everything else - just about human behavior and "achiever pro" issues.
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