It's my contention that blowout games that are wildly uneven are less fun than close games, where there's some back-and-forth. If you disagree, you can stop reading now. :)
I got some spare time, and spent it writing an app to figure out if team balance is as bad as I thought, in VCTF games. I think I've crunched the numbers correctly, but I've attached the raw data if you'd like to crunch it a different way.
The app hits the miasma.rocks server twice a minute, watching for when the map changes, and records the scores. I let it run for about a week.
There were just under 700 games played. I removed 34 ONS games, and 11 VCTF4 games.
That left 613 games.
45 of them were 0 vs. 0, so I removed those.
That left 568 scoring games of VCTF. These counts are number of games, then red vs. blue scores.
61 0 vs. 5
103 5 vs. 0
2 0 vs. 4
12 4 vs. 0
47 1 vs. 5
52 5 vs. 1
4 1 vs. 4
11 4 vs. 1
That's a total of 292 games, or 51.4% of the VCTF games that were recorded.
To me, half the games played are boringly uneven. We need a team balancer.
One surprising thing that jumps out to me is that being on red is the way to go if you want to be on the winning team in a blowout game. I'm guessing this is due to the "default team" setting somehow. If anyone has a good theory on this, I'm interested in hearing it.
I also collected data for the Freon server, where I understand there is a team balancer of some sort. It gets a lot less action.
Out of 208 scoring games, only 5 games were 10 vs. 1 or 10 vs. 2. There were no 10 vs. 0 games at all.
freon also have competition mode set to on,. which lowers the starting health and shield for the leading team for each round (the more uneven the score the less health the leading team gets)
though the balancer does a lot to help
personally I agree,. if you know your team "can't win" it's hard to get that motivated and is less fun
Aye, agree with Hagis. The competition mode makes it harder and harder for a blowout game.
Shows the balancer functions.
Not sure about motivation from my perspective, I always try to join the losing team if I'm jumping in mid match, although I do let the balancer do it's thing. These days I just celebrate hitting something other than a wall :) ??? 8)
The_Cowboy started work on a balancer as a background thing, but I don't kniow how far he got with it.
Freon works by:
1. storing "points per round" to an external database,
2. at the start of each game (or player join) it gets an average value from the external datbase
3. Freon is (normally) 10 rounds of play. At start of round 1, or at the start of a round followng (admin calls for it, or a high value player joins) the balancer tries to ensure that the two teams' average points per round is as close as it can get it.
The problem with this is that you get points in Freon for thawing and fragging. Players can be good at one or the other or both. You can end up with a team of thawers against a team of fraggers, or an imbalance (mid-game) of one excellent player with a group of low-scoring players against a team of medium scorers.
Another problem is that some maps go on a very long time with large numbers of players getting thawed, so points per round can be very high on those maps, raising average points way above what you'd get with fewer players on shorter maps.
If you'd like to have a go at coding a better balancer for vCTF, go for it. Maybe liaise with The_Cowboy and pool resources.
I feel like one of the biggest factors that team balancers can't really account for, especially in objective based games modes is good teamwork.
Individual points in modes like ONS and VCTF don't necessarily translate into victories so how do you balance players that take on support roles that may not offer up the most points but can dictate the result of a match?
I honestly really dislike team balancers as they're never going to be perfect and they seem to cause nothing but complaints.
Maybe balance based on proportion of wins to loses? You may be great and unlucky or poor and lucky with your team.....but maybe averaging out winners and losers could be a strategy.
I think that might help a little.
No balancer will ever be perfect. A perfect balancer would be awful: stalemate.
I see them as a little nudge in the right direction.
Balancer is not perfect for many reasons,. one example, some days people play better than others,. freon balancer lets you mix the current match ppr score with that players avg over a number of matches which helps a little
does it help to have a balancer,. well that's opinion on what matches should look like,. every match ending 9-10 or 10-9 is not the goal to me but to create a playing field where at least there's a possibility for a win from either side
core freon server currently has no balancing (no one to balance and people don't typically switch and no automated ppr balance) - matches there are stupid,. mid way through a match that was actually fairly even few players join and the outcome is known the moment they join,. just as well call it then and hope the next match randomly gives a better balance
Quote from: hagis on September 02, 2021, 10:37
core freon server currently has no balancing (no one to balance and people don't typically switch and no automated ppr balance) - matches there are stupid,. mid way through a match that was actually fairly even few players join and the outcome is known the moment they join,. just as well call it then and hope the next match randomly gives a better balance
We definitely see that on the vCTF server too. One glance at the player list and sometimes you know it's going to be a short brutal boring game.
Hey Flens, how about running this puppy again and spit out the statistics, now!
Ah, should have put this data in this thread rather than the balancing one.
Here's the data my app collected over the past couple of weeks.
Out of 1532 VCTF games that had scores, 734 were 5-0, 5-1, 4-0 or 4-1, or 48%.
This is only slightly better than before the balancer was added, when it was 51%.
I don't know if 3% is within sampling error or whatever. I am surprised that it's only 3%.
Can this be explained by perhaps not enough data-gathering by the balancer? Or because then balancer doesn't balance when new people join?
16 0 vs. 1
13 0 vs. 2
8 0 vs. 3
21 0 vs. 4
138 0 vs. 5
24 1 vs. 0
23 1 vs. 2
18 1 vs. 3
11 1 vs. 4
101 1 vs. 5
12 2 vs. 0
27 2 vs. 1
20 2 vs. 3
26 2 vs. 4
84 2 vs. 5
27 3 vs. 0
22 3 vs. 1
40 3 vs. 2
1 3 vs. 3
23 3 vs. 4
68 3 vs. 5
30 4 vs. 0
24 4 vs. 1
29 4 vs. 2
23 4 vs. 3
2 4 vs. 4
66 4 vs. 5
272 5 vs. 0
137 5 vs. 1
83 5 vs. 2
81 5 vs. 3
62 5 vs. 4
Probably because people join or change team part way through.
Thanks for statistics. I'd certainly count that as progress (I am no data scientist though).
As you and Piglet have observed, there are several open ended scenarios where, once teams are balanced, fluctuations in the form of team-change, team-leave/join may enter. You are welcome to look into the algorithm and suggest. I just hope that it won't be a forceful experience for players.
Cheers mateys!
Side note: I have been working on WebAdmin functionality. Not really sure how much that would facilitate balancing mid-game. That is on hold because I have resumed working on my game Engine (the reason why I have been absent on Warfare recently).
few past days i alway ended up vs a stacked team. This equalizer is acting weird sometime.
Well it is really difficult to separate out the balance-quits (similar to rage quits, but quitters quite because of, well....) and woopsie of Equalizer. So I'd be careful before making up my mind.
Quote from: The_Cowboy on April 20, 2022, 02:23
Well it is really difficult to separate out the balance-quits (similar to rage quits, but quitters quit because of, well....) and woopsie of Equalizer. So I'd be careful before making up my mind.
The balance doesn't work for me
When the match starts:
You're on red team
But I'm on a blue team ... Faulty ..
All the code is in the package. Feel free to suggest the fix to make it work properly.
I suspect there's a variable not replicating properly....
Just weird 2 laps passed in the same team distribution
I don't think this balance system is good.
2 gameplay passed in the same team distribution.
And unfortunately it's weird when I play in novice players team, and unfortunately there's no chance of winning because some people don't know what to do.
(https://c.tenor.com/3G2_pgxT4bUAAAAM/stay-cool-nail-file.gif)
Quote from: Romulus on April 26, 2022, 04:49
Just weird 2 laps passed in the same team distribution
I don't think this balance system is good.
2 gameplay passed in the same team distribution.
And unfortunately it's weird when I play in novice players team, and unfortunately there's no chance of winning because some people don't know what to do.
(https://c.tenor.com/3G2_pgxT4bUAAAAM/stay-cool-nail-file.gif)
Well if you can observe the static team distribution, then good! That is what balancer was designed for. Please read complete page
https://github.com/ravimohan1991/Equalizer/blob/miasmactivity/BalancingAlgorithm.md
Please note balancer is incomplete and needs algorithmic feedbacks. So start coming up with methodologies (instead of stupid opinions covered with the jargonic name of "standards").
I think everyone has the right to have their say.
That is incomplete. With rights come responsibility. Not sure if you understand the later part or just choose to ignore that.
biztos...
This "balance system" is worth nothing!
I was alone again! and I was alone in the previous round too!
I got one more comment for this
"xD"
I also lost in the previous round because I was alone! and the "balance" was the same again!
so how does it work? please explain because the same balance is in 2 rounds! I talked about this in my previous post which you called "stupid" comments!
(https://i.ibb.co/kSWXDrN/2022-05-01-1.png) (https://ibb.co/tJWD2NV)
(https://i.ibb.co/7VrzyRM/2022-05-01.png) (https://ibb.co/NpW3YmD)
lol
(https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/19/1534241834.7025-smilie.gif)
Quote from: Romulus on May 01, 2022, 06:12
This "balance system" is worth nothing!
I was alone again! and I was alone in the previous round too!
I got one more comment for this
"xD"
I also lost in the previous round because I was alone! and the "balance" was the same again!
so how does it work? please explain because the same balance is in 2 rounds! I talked about this in my previous post which you called "stupid" comments!
(https://i.ibb.co/kSWXDrN/2022-05-01-1.png) (https://ibb.co/tJWD2NV)
(https://i.ibb.co/7VrzyRM/2022-05-01.png) (https://ibb.co/NpW3YmD)
Well since you are asking nicely, visit page http://stats.miasma.rocks/EqualizerBE/SuperDuperLargeStatisticsInformation.html. You can refer to the OP here (https://miasma.rocks/index.php/topic,1682.msg22619.html#msg22619)
Now you should see PPH in the last vertical column and if you make the table, the list is as follows
Name PPH
1. [BMS]Romulus 199
2. Saint_Paul 179
3. Qoth Unknown
Now number 3's PPH is unknown meaning either they (PPHs) are immature, in the sense, their registered playtime is less than 1 hour or they are using corruption connection or relevant nuiance (that really messes up ID's to track them down).
The Algorithm is to put highest PPH player, in the beginning of a match, on red and subsequent 2 lower players on blue. The corruption is equivalent to lower PPH (while deciding the order). And before you point fingers at me, this is completely Pig's algorithm (except the corruption equivalent to 0 PPH, which to my utter shock and unpleasantness becomes true in many situations). Finally, the fact that balance is SAME for more than one match (if I understand you correctly) means that the Pig's Algorithm is STATIC. Again you got problem take it up with the boss.
When you write "This "balance system" is worth nothing!" you are implying that basically Admins of this community are worth nothing, meaning, you yourself are investing your time (is it?) into nothing (which in my POV is highly inconsistent statement). Now tell me how satisfied you really are! 8)
Also if you have some improvements for Algorithm, please feel free to contribute to https://github.com/ravimohan1991/Equalizer/tree/miasmactivity
BUt I highly doubt your ability to make a PR there, because it actually needs learning concepts and knowing things, which in my POV you utterly lack and won't be learning in your entire life cycle.
Why would we help with anything after features have been taken away from us?
We have a fair original edition of the game and features have been removed from us
Those who are cheating, moving in the game (using a moving keyboard) will not be banned as it is considered cheating .... Well I will not help you with anything.
However, sometimes you don't always look for the fault in others, but open your eyes and notice that some people always get away with everything on the server.
Bye!
Lul, peter, I am NOT expecting you to contribute anything. If anything you are just a BIG time sink who likes to suck up creativity and then feed on that. If you decide to quit, I believe it'd be a good riddance for this community!
Romulus, those "features" were taken away from you when you used them to cheat.
Specifically you and/or your sibling were dropping to spectate to tell the other where the flag carriers were. You can no longer spectate.
To try and avoid the restriction you started using another cd key. I've also now restricted that copy so that you cannot spec from there either.
Quote from: Piglet on May 04, 2022, 10:29
Romulus, those "features" were taken away from you when you used them to cheat.
Specifically you and/or your sibling were dropping to spectate to tell the other where the flag carriers were. You can no longer spectate.
To try and avoid the restriction you started using another cd key. I've also now restricted that copy so that you cannot spec from there either.
A decision without evidence..
But the game has 2 edition me (we only use our own CD keys)
I don't care about the spec mode ... The main thing for me is to be able to play with my twin brother JL ...❤️ For me, this is the most important thing in the game.❤️
GUID: da921b90ff816c7611a009b55f53a28d - original key
GUID: 1438efce816de8e33215cb3f539dca0c - used from 13/06/2020
Both GUID's above spec banned from 08/01/2022.
GUID: 7ec2d44831a439a8baa85f4f708401db - started to be used by you from 11/01/2022
Quote from: From Romulus by PMPiglet ... Don't you think that's what's going on with Discord?
They give each other information ...
Yes - talking is fine. Dropping to spec to find the flag carrier ....not so fine.
Quote from: Piglet on May 04, 2022, 11:48
GUID: da921b90ff816c7611a009b55f53a28d - original key
GUID: 1438efce816de8e33215cb3f539dca0c - used from 13/06/2020
Yes this my keys.
Both GUID's above spec banned from 08/01/2022.
Quote from: Piglet on May 04, 2022, 11:48
GUID: 7ec2d44831a439a8baa85f4f708401db - started to be used by you from 11/01/2022
This is test CD-key.(Sorry)
I don't think it's appropriate to give GUIDs to others...I consider this obscene..(this is everyone's own unique GUID) I don't understand why it couldn't be sent in a private message.
Quote from: Piglet on May 04, 2022, 12:18
Quote from: From Romulus by PMPiglet ... Don't you think that's what's going on with Discord?
They give each other information ...
Yes - talking is fine. Dropping to spec to find the flag carrier ....not so fine.
And if someone spec and gives the information discordon ...
Hmm ...
It is irrelevant, unnecessary to argue ... It is only outrageous that some players were not penalized despite several violations.
That is the essence of things.
Rom, live discord team voice chat is different, its what multiplayer is all about. But going in spec to see or using other screen is not
Quote from: Romulus on May 04, 2022, 12:48
Quote from: Piglet on May 04, 2022, 11:48
GUID: da921b90ff816c7611a009b55f53a28d - original key
GUID: 1438efce816de8e33215cb3f539dca0c - used from 13/06/2020
Yes this my keys.
Both GUID's above spec banned from 08/01/2022.
Quote from: Piglet on May 04, 2022, 11:48
GUID: 7ec2d44831a439a8baa85f4f708401db - started to be used by you from 11/01/2022
This is test CD-key.(Sorry)
I don't think it's appropriate to give GUIDs to others...I consider this obscene..(this is everyone's own unique GUID) I don't understand why it couldn't be sent in a private message.
GUID is not the same as the CD key but
is generated based on the used CD-key to identify the client on the server.
Quote from: Nardaq_NL on May 04, 2022, 13:46
GUID is not the same as the CD key but is generated based on the used CD-key to identify the client on the server.
Thank you very much, @Nardaq
I didn't know that.
So it's different ... Then I don't bother.
Everyone can see the GUID of any other player in any server by blocking them from chat from the client menu, and checking the content of the ini file generated.
I didn't know this.
Thank you very much for the information.
As the person who started the discord revolution, we never allow spectators to tell us about the other team. That is absolutely not fair and falls in the zone of cheating. This is because you are using tools which are not equally available to others unlike discord where everyone is welcome and I am marketing it all day long ;)
Only once plaka speced and ratted on Quadro on my request but it was done with full disclosure to Quadro the next day with a link. So, it was for fun and I also wanted to see if my weak team could use the plaka intel to enhance their capabilities. This was purely a test and Quadro was laughing and took it in good sport once he saw the video ;)
So, when you guys kill flag runners like me with spec intel, you tend to forget that it is a long run and a tough work to get the flag and to lose it to spec intel is not fair.
So, I hope you guys do not grudge the spec ban as if you win by hard work, that is in the end of the day, much more satisfying than going to sleep knowing for eg: I beat Quadro thanks to Plaka ? ;)
Also, from common sense, if some players are let off for minor things, it is probably because the offense is not too serious. Eg: Me and quadro pooping in longest yard or me spawn killing when I am sure my team has a few extra noobs (I rarely do this) etc etc. But serious ones like Asus episode has immediate ban.
Finally, sometimes red and blue teams talk in the same channel because that is the level of trust and friendliness we have among us :D
Okay but then you won't be whining that "winjoin" etc
We're can't spec, so we join random team... (https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/19/1534241665.0609-smilie.gif)
Keep it on topic, last 15 post has nothing to do with this thread.
(https://groups.tapatalk-cdn.com/smilies/19/1534240428.4872-smilie.gif)