Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)

[holyspam]

Making this post public for discussion.
If I don't post it today, I will keep forgetting.

quick summary:

High priority:
==========================================================================================

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Balancer + Challenge mode - game breaker combo[/b] - [Done-testing]
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-> winning team gets ahead by 3 points, score is 9-6
-> challenge mode means 140hp for winning team and 170hp for losing team at this point
-> team that had 3 losing rounds, now has lower average PPR due to lower performance
-> balancer is triggered and balances the PPR
-> a good player is swapped to the losing team
-> losing team wins 3 rounds in a row, because 125-140 starting HP means you're dead with 1 shot
-> losing team is now full of adrenaline because they easily won the few rounds
-> losing team proceeds to win the game in 70% of games
>>> Result <<<
1. The player skill was not balanced
2. The conditions to achieve victory were not balanced (one team had lower starting HP)
3. People whine about the balancer swapping incorrect players
4. The team that just lost 3 rounds in a row, probably spent all their adr trying to win the round, but the team that won 3 rounds has more adr to spend
5. The score number was balanced!  9-9 is balanced!#win

My suggestions:
Disable challenge mode completely
- offers nothing but dumb kills, stats that do not reflect reality, breaks the balancer and  creates easy "comebacks"
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Challenge mode rework: [On hold]
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-> takes away HP based on won rounds, that is 5 per round, up to 45 when your team score is 9-X
-> takes additonal away HP from winning team, that is 5 per extra round that your team is ahead compared to the enemy team
-> allows "weaker" team to win
-> inflates PPR of lower skilled players
-> reduces PPR of higher skilled players
>>> Result <<<
Most players are "compressed" into the same PPR range between 6-12, instead of a range from 5-20
Makes the PPR scale non-linear.

Suggestion:
Disable or adjust formula

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Balancer: [Done partial]
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-> works perfect in picking the correct numbers according to its programming, including when and where to swap
>>> Result <<<
-> expects linear scaling
-> takes the average PPR and in most cases does a good job with the numbers

Suggestions:
Maybe tweak the HistoricalPPR/CurrentPPR weight formula and maybe add priority picking/exclusions - Done
Add the (thaws+kills)/deaths ratio into calculation for similar PPR and use that for balance, see how it works.

==========================================================================================


Lower priority issues:
==========================================================================================

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Equalizer: [ToDo]
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-> Randomly swaps a player even if they're alive when someone leaves
>>> Result <<<
Breaks the game for the swapped player
Suggest changing the behaviour or disabling it


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bots: - [ToDo]
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They are useful for low player counts, but they are completely OP and hard to hit.

Suggestion:
They should be removed from the game when player counts are 12 or higher.

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Bio-camping: [On hold]
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The way spawn protection works now, it checks for any nearby teammates
>>> Result <<<
In the olden days, we used to always get spawn protection after being thawed and you would thaw nearby teammates too, without losing it.
Then you could resurrect - usually from the adr received by thawing them - and you would still not lose spawn protection.

We made necro combo disable spawn protection.
Spawn protected people are unable to thaw frozen teammates next to them, unless they move around a bit.
Disabled spawn protection for grouped people

Some are abusing this, to land 1 kill and then die.
Shooting the frozen player and dealing full dmg like you shot an alive player and killing the player next to him is unfair.


Suggestion:
Force the biocamper to shoot the person being thawed, not shoot at the frozen body and benefit.
- Only disable spawn protection for more than 3 teammates nearby.
- Disable splash damage for frozen pawns. (make the frozen bodies react like objects, instead of players)

==========================================================================================
Other:
==========================================================================================
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Available maps: - [On hold]
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The alternative maplist has been in play for 3 years now, the people have chosen their favorite maps, shockingly, it's the same maps that were chosen over the last 20 years by every other server.

Suggestion:
Retire the never played maps and bring back the original classic maps (example: Rankin-FE, Lea original, Under original, Grendel), the community likes them for a reason.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Overtime suicides: - [On hold]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently in overtime you need to suicide to save yourself from dying.
>>> Result <<<
Loss of score, slow thaw

Suggestion:
Change the way suicide works in overtime

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Necro combo priority - [Done]
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Currently it's random/oldest thaw priority
>>> Result <<<
People get resurrected when thawed at 90-95%.
Dead teammates stay dead - no chance of thaw unless someone resurrects

Suggestion:
Pick players who are dead first, then oldest death, check for completion (don't resurrect at 80%+)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Client Reporting rate - [Done]
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++ Added fallback to default logic as a player-configurable option
** Changed "Desired Net Update Rate" name to "Client reporting rate" as it reflects better what it does
++ Added slider with 3 levels for the new logic

Slider position:

• Left - minimum rate allowed by the server
• Middle - equal to half of the configured framerate (FPS * 0.5)
• Right - equal to the configured framerate

The final value is set between the server configured Min/Max values upon joining, and also the configured Netspeed divided by 100:

• (MinRate < Final_Reporting_Rate < MaxRate) && ( MinRate < Final_Reporting_Rate < Netspeed * 0.01)

The configured minimum is 84(or 12 milliseconds)
The configured maximum is 333(or 3 milliseconds)

Example with 200FPS in your ini and 20.000 netspeed
Left position:

• 84 updates/second - update every 12 milliseconds

Middle position:

• 101 updates/second - update every 10 milliseconds

Right position:

• 201 updates/second - update every 5 milliseconds

Netspeed:

• 20.000 netspeed limits the max rate to 200/sec
• 10.001 netspeed limits the max rate to 100/sec

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- Fix lg hit registration logic - [WIP]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Add some extra messages for spawn protection, healing etc - WIP

[Kuha]

 I agree Challenge mode needs to go. u have my vote for that and Quadros so thats 2 already.

[Blub]

Making this post public for discussion.
If I don't post it today, I will keep forgetting.

quick summary:

==========================================================================================
High priority issue:
==========================================================================================

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Challenge mode:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-> takes away HP based on won rounds, that is 5 per round, up to 45 when your team score is 9-X
-> takes additonal away HP from winning team, that is 5 per extra round that your team is ahead compared to the enemy team
-> allows "weaker" team to win
-> inflates PPR of lower skilled players
-> reduces PPR of higher skilled players
>>> Result <<<
Most players are "compressed" into the same PPR range between 6-12, instead of a range from 5-20
Makes the PPR scale non-linear.

Suggestion:
Disable or adjust formula

I mostly agree to this point, even though I am torn between plainly disabling challenge mode or influencing the result by changing the formula.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Balancer:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-> works perfect in picking the correct numbers according to its programming, including when and where to swap
>>> Result <<<
-> expects linear scaling
-> takes the average PPR and in most cases does a good job with the numbers

Suggestion:
Leave as it is, maybe tweak the HistoricalPPR/CurrentPPR weight formula and maybe add priority picking/exclusions

Technically the balancer works fine and does what she should be. My main issue with it is that it balances too often and especially late game switches are really annoying me lately. For me it should be set a tad less sensitive and if technically possible (without storing too much data what might cause issues otherwise) there should be a limit of how often a player should be switched, for example maximum two times per game.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Balancer + Challenge mode - game breaker combo
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-> winning team gets ahead by 3 points, score is 9-6
-> challenge mode means 140hp for winning team and 170hp for losing team at this point
-> team that had 3 losing rounds, now has lower average PPR due to lower performance
-> balancer is triggered and balances the PPR
-> a good player is swapped to the losing team
-> losing team wins 3 rounds in a row, because 125-140 starting HP means you're dead with 1 shot
-> losing team is now full of adrenaline because they easily won the few rounds
-> losing team proceeds to win the game in 70% of games
>>> Result <<<
1. The player skill was not balanced
2. The conditions to achieve victory were not balanced (one team had lower starting HP)
3. People whine about the balancer swapping incorrect players
4. The team that just lost 3 rounds in a row, probably spent all their adr trying to win the round, but the team that won 3 rounds has more adr to spend
5. The score number was balanced!  9-9 is balanced!#win


My suggestions:
Disable challenge mode completely
- offers nothing but dumb kills, stats that do not reflect reality, breaks the balancer and  creates easy "comebacks"

Add the (thaws+kills)/deaths ratio into calculation for similar PPR and use that for balance, see how it works.

While I was not exactly sure about the points above I more or less completely agree with this point. Comebacks have become the standard nowadays because of the problems described. I would definitely prefer to change the ppr calculation because it could maybe help getting a bit more freon into the game again.

==========================================================================================
Lower priority issues:
==========================================================================================
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Equalizer:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-> Randomly swaps a player even if they're alive when someone leaves
>>> Result <<<
Breaks the game for the swapped player
Suggest changing the behaviour or disabling it

I agree with this one, change the player after the round, that is enough to balance.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bots:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are useful for low player counts, but they are completely OP and hard to hit.

Suggestion:
They should be removed from the game when player counts are 12 or higher.

I am really unsure about this one. On the one hand the bot is causing problems (even though that is not always for the team he is playing for) at the same time I don't know if missing the bot really results in "equal" teams. Also it would be interessting to see how this would affect the balancer.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bio-camping:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The way spawn protection works now, it checks for any nearby teammates
>>> Result <<<
In the olden days, we used to always get spawn protection after being thawed and you would thaw nearby teammates too, without losing it.
Then you could resurrect - usually from the adr received by thawing them - and you would still not lose spawn protection.

We made necro combo disable spawn protection.
Spawn protected people are unable to thaw frozen teammates next to them, unless they move around a bit.
Disabled spawn protection for grouped people

Some are abusing this, to land 1 kill and then die.
Shooting the frozen player and dealing full dmg like you shot an alive player and killing the player next to him is unfair.


Suggestion:
Force the biocamper to shoot the person being thawed, not shoot at the frozen body and benefit.
- Only disable spawn protection for more than 3 teammates nearby.
- Disable splash damage for frozen pawns. (make the frozen bodies react like objects, instead of players)

I definitely agree with the idea to disable the spawn protection for more than three teammates below. From what I understood about the disabling of the splash damage I would say this needs testing, but I see a lot of potential about this one.

==========================================================================================
Other:
==========================================================================================
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Available maps:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The alternative maplist has been in play for 3 years now, the people have chosen their favorite maps, shockingly, it's the same maps that were chosen over the last 20 years by every other server.

Suggestion:
Retire the never played maps and bring back the original classic maps (example: Rankin-FE, Lea original, Under original, Grendel), the community likes them for a reason.

I definitely agree with this point, maybe we could have the alternative map-list with these maps and then add a couple of maps from time to time to that list so ppl could try other maps if they really want to. At the moment the list is filled with way too many maps that are rarely played.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Overtime suicides:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently in overtime you need to suicide to save yourself from dying.
>>> Result <<<
Loss of score, slow thaw

Suggestion:
Change the way suicide works in overtime

Given that suicide in overtime is a strategic decision, I totally agree with this point.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Necro combo priority
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently it's random/oldest thaw priority
>>> Result <<<
People get resurrected when thawed at 90-95%.
Dead teammates stay dead - no chance of thaw unless someone resurrects

Suggestion:
Pick players who are dead first, then oldest death, check for completion (don't resurrect at 80%+)

Definitely agree with this one.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Change "Desired Net Update Rate" name to "Client tickrate" and change options from a slider to Full, Half, Minimum and Stock - WIP
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Fix lg hit registration logic - WIP
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Add some extra messages for spawn protection, healing etc - WIP
[/quote]

Overall I think there are a lot of good ideas in this post - what do the others think?

[Piglet]

Disable Challenge mode or adjust formula

Remove challenge mode, then probably need to change thawing back to 3spn thawing logic: you thaw with the thawer's health or the average player health.

Suggestion:
Balancer: Leave as it is, maybe tweak the HistoricalPPR/CurrentPPR weight formula and maybe add priority picking/exclusions

Suggestion: Add in a check on player count - PPR for n players, and possibly even "this map" at particular player count. Contrast or Goose you can get extremely high player counts and so massive PPR. I got over 22 PPR as at the end of one map yesterday. That doesn't translate to a 3v3.

Add the (thaws+kills)/deaths ratio into calculation for similar PPR and use that for balance, see how it works.

Sounds complex. The lack of it in the calculation results in some interesting maps (killers vs thawers at about the same PPR average)

Equalizer:
Suggest changing the behaviour or disabling it

Need specifics of how it would work. I can give you the code to fix. It's more complex than it looks...

Bots:
They are useful for low player counts, but they are completely OP and hard to hit.
Suggestion:
They should be removed from the game when player counts are 12 or higher.

I find them easy to hit but lethal up close! It sort of evens out

Bio-camping:
Suggestion:
- Disable splash damage for frozen pawns. (make the frozen bodies react like objects, instead of players)

Should be possible. I like it. Give me some code for that? Perhaps configurable radius so we can tweak it?

Available maps:
Retire the never played maps and bring back the original classic maps (example: Rankin-FE, Lea original, Under original, Grendel), the community likes them for a reason.

There are good maps out there. It would be nice if someone was willing to work through them to help identify / tweak maps that might work.

I've added Rankin-FE, NewAge-FE (will work for small player count) and UCantHide-FE (which will be a silly map for low numbers sometimes).

Grendel is the biggest pile of shite out there for Freon.

Overtime suicides:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently in overtime you need to suicide to save yourself from dying.

That's how it should be. Suggestion, if you're on the team with more live teammates make it even more slow in proportion to the player count difference. If it's 8 v 1 then it should take a really really long time to thaw. As the team numbers get closer, then thaw faster.

Overtime suicides:
Necro combo priority
Currently it's random/oldest thaw priority
People get resurrected when thawed at 90-95%.
Dead teammates stay dead - no chance of thaw unless someone resurrects
Suggestion:Pick players who are dead first, then oldest death, check for completion (don't resurrect at 80%+)

The current rule is to select the frozen/dead player who has been frozen/dead the longest of anyone in that state. If you're the player who died before any remaining frozen player was frozen then it will choose you.
Dead players should possibly be first in the list
Not sure about the 80%+ part. You have that information that someone is 80+ on the screen. You could wait. I see people using res on the team when it's 7v1 and they're on the team with 7 live players. You shouldn't "fix stupid".






---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Change "Desired Net Update Rate" name to "Client tickrate" and change options from a slider to Full, Half, Minimum and Stock - WIP
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Fix lg hit registration logic - WIP
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Add some extra messages for spawn protection, healing etc - WIP

[Krellsan]

Jeez. Maybe you shouldn't fix something that isn't broken? And maybe for example create a vote on these parameters? Apparently just leaving everything "as it be" is not an option.
Why not just divide the servers into kindergarten and professionals-tryharders. Something alike - u shall not pass if ur ppr lower than 10! 8! above! lower! Add some mightiest bots there for creating a crowd if there not many ppl online. And then we will see which server have more online and on which one situation is healthier and friendlier. Not everyone here wants to be a grand achiever or instantly do it in a competition mode. Jeez, dudes. With these settings U literally pull out, throwing overboard specifically me, and some other people, who just can't reach your skill. My complaints on this freon is just only about "suicidal label", which you can get with hitting ur frozen teammate. That bug is really awful. Everything else - just about human behavior and "achiever pro" issues.

[Piglet]

"suicidal label", which you can get with hitting ur frozen teammate. That bug is really awful.

That's not a bug. That's there by design. It stops you from having limitless health at no cost to you by suiciding by a teammate every time you get low, or by rocket-jumping into lava for full health like people used to do before we stopped that.


...and by the way, just in case you didn't know...we've spent a lot of time tweaking Freon. Small changes here and there to make it better over time. Lots of thought goes into each change. You're just seeing some of this in the thread

[wife]

Should be possible. I like it. Give me some code for that? Perhaps configurable radius so we can tweak it?

Changing the UClass from xPawn to something else might make frozen corpses go a bit weird on movers and bypass blocking volumes.  Might also prevent instathaws from lava dipping.    I'm not really sure on how to change it but I'll have a play around with it.

I was gonna suggest making the pawn have zero collision, but I like using people as shields when I'm thawing them so disregard.

There are good maps out there. It would be nice if someone was willing to work through them to help identify / tweak maps that might work.

I'm happy to tweak maps if players have suggestions/find exploits.  Things like fixing sticky BSP, changing platform lifts into pillar lifts to stop them from getting stuck in a bump loop when a frozen corpse is underneath them etc.

I'm still working on the new pathing for trast and removing the collision from the lamps.  If anyone has any requests for map tweaks add me on discord: AngelPrincess#7837 (old acc is dead)

I've added Rankin-FE

[Piglet]

Can't we just adjust the Class'BioBlob'.Default.DamageRadius, or is it something else that causes the issue?

[wife]

I'm not entirely sure, I found this section in XWeapons.BioGlob under Actors->Projectiles:

Code: [Select]

function BlowUp(Vector HitLocation)
{
    if (Role == ROLE_Authority)
    {
        Damage = BaseDamage + Damage * GoopLevel;
        DamageRadius = DamageRadius * GoopVolume;
        MomentumTransfer = MomentumTransfer * GoopVolume;
        if (Physics == PHYS_Flying) MomentumTransfer *= 0.5;
        DelayedHurtRadius(Damage, DamageRadius, MyDamageType, MomentumTransfer, HitLocation);
But I can't find the DamageRadius variable in the XWeapons.u/XWeapons_rc.u/ XGame.u files.  Do you know what files I'm suppose to look in?

I also found this in the Redeemer projectile:

Code: [Select]

HurtRadius(Damage, DamageRadius*0.125, MyDamageType, MomentumTransfer, Location);
So maybe setting a HurtRadius is the way to go, but I'm still pretty unsure. 

Changing the functionality of the weapon is a little daunting as people have gotten used to how it works, so this would unintentionally nerf its use outside of biocamping.

[holyspam]

------- damage adjustments ---------
@Piglet
Cannot check the code now, but we can easily add some extra checks in the 3SPN "ReduceDamage" function that would cover all weapon damage, not just Bio.
@wife
The way 3SPN/Freon is set-up now, changing Pawn class would create major issues, also creates huge processing times when spawning/destroying Actor classes.
That code is the relevant block, but I would prefer to leave the behaviour for the frozen player as-is and change only the splash/spread to nearby players.

--------- 3spn thaws/challengemode --------------
@Piglet
Changing 3spn thaw logic to take into account score advantage, but leaving the starting and resurrected health/shield to full should be good.
-- I say we start by adjusting the current code to always start at full HP. --
@Krellsan
This actually helps lower skilled players more than high skilled players, who usually adapt to running around the map with low health.

Expect 20-30% higher PPR on the server for people in the 0-6 range
Maybe 20-50% higher for 6-9 range and maybe 50-100% higher for >10PPR players
Range of 15-20 might become common for players who already have 10+
This will help the lower skilled players, as they would now be matched with 15+ PPR teammates for the average.


------------- Score calculations ------------

@Piglet
Like you said...you had 22 PPR...which is because having a lot of players to thaw you is elliminating the effect of challenge mode.
With regular 16 players it would be like 12-20 without challenge mode, depending on map/game.

If we remove it, PPR history will have to be emptied and to begin from scratch.
Since the change will affect the scores and gameplay, it would take 30 games for every player for the balancer to work properly.
If we set the current average as the "last game" and remove the other 29 datapoints, it should allow the new system to start calculating with the new "gameplay"

PPR-per-players or per-players-per-map would require a lot of additional database scripts/stats logic to work, yes it would create a "perfect balancer" but I think just using per-player-count covers 90% of edge-cases and does not require a full table of maps, with different map versions to make it work.


------- Thaw+Kill/Death ratio ------
It might actually happen more frequently, since it would take both kills and thaws at 50% weight, compared to deaths.
Very experimental, but it might work instead of PPR for rounds/matches where the PPR difference is <0.5 between teams, but one team is getting ahead easily

--------- equalizer  ---------------
Sure, I was just thinking adding some delays or extra checks, before the final swap, it looks like it's just instant and random now.


---------------- resurrect logic  ------------------
Yes I am aware of the current logic and agree, but I am talking about the case where most of the team is dead, you are being hunted by enemies, trying to reach the 90% thawed to touch before the enemy kills you, it resurrects them near you and they also die.
But the biggest issue is the Dead priority - only when not in overtime and also not for fresh joiners.

[Soma]

What about teamdamage shouldn't be removed ? I really hate when I hit my teammate I lose hp and today I died because one of my team walked into my shot that doesn't happen on warfare it only happens on freon

[Piglet]

Stop spamming them. Curse them (politely if possible) when they do it!

RFF is part of Freon. It's a team game. If you shoot teammates or they jump in front of you...that's what you get.

The alternative means that you're free to spam anything anywhere at any time with no adverse consequences.

[nyrde]

Balancer + Challenge mode - game breaker combo
Disable challenge mode completely / AGREE
Just makes the balancing unpredictable and harder if there are multiple parameters doing it

Bots:
remove after when 12+ players / AGREE
Bots are annoying to play against because they move unnaturally so you always have adjust. And coming around a corner in contact with "flakbot" means instant death.

Bio-camping:
Force the biocamper to shoot the person being thawed, not shoot at the frozen body and benefit. /AGREE
- Only disable spawn protection for more than 3 teammates nearby. /AGREE
- Disable splash damage for frozen pawns. (make the frozen bodies react like objects, instead of players) /AGREE
The annoying thing about bio camp for me is, that even thou, the bio shot comes from far away and you react by trying to dodge away, you still die or loose most of your health because the damage range is so huge. So one option could only be limit the damage range. But I would still be open to try the suggested changes.

This is probably a silly idea, but what if enemy bio thaws the players a little... like 25% so there is a kinda risk reward aspect to the bio camping... I dont know... could be interesting. I dont' know how hard it would be to implement thou 

[Piglet]

I did turn off challenge mode yesterday, and people have not yet noticed. I suspect it won't work well. Let's see.

Bots...possible. The code in this area is rather horrid. I try to touch it as little as possible!

Thawing enemies with Bio?  You know, that does sound interesting....

[Jozz]

We noticed - I gave Lakana a HS when it was 9-4 and he just kept coming at me! It might seem that challenge mode wouldn't be needed when the balancer works so well, but apparently it's still useful. IMO apart from a few exceptions, the current setup works well and is very fair.
Bio thawing would be great, and a big surprise for those pesky campers!