Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)  (Read 36998 times)

holyspam

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2023, 12:21 »
I did turn off challenge mode yesterday, and people have not yet noticed. I suspect it won't work well. Let's see.

Challenge mode is not a small game change that affects 1% of the game, it's affecting one of the most BASIC rules of the game, your Health Points.

When it's changed, old match history MUST be reset and the current Average PPR to be set as average, that way it can quickly adjust to the new game rules, without starting from zero stats.

Otherwise it takes 30 games of 6v6 or more (and was it 4 or 5 rounds?) for every player to gather proper statistics for it and then we can have proper balancing.

Just turning it off, will take 2-3 weeks to properly gather statistics and that's just for the everyday player.
People who don't join during this period will still have a PPR calculation based on a different type of game rules.

Just turning it off for 1-2 matches will 100% bring bad balance, all it proves is that you must reset the scores.
Nothing more.
You can use CTF stats to balance at this point, it will have the same effect.

I swear, everytime i tried turning it off, someone turns it on after 5 minutes. "SEE IT'S NOT WORKING!!!"

--------------------------------------------------
Team A vs Team B
Score is 0-0
Balancer creates perfectly balanced teams, equal skills on both teams. The only moment that challenge mode doesn't affect the game.
--------------------------------------------------
Score is 1-0.
Team A starts the round with 190HP. Team B starts the round with 200HP
--------------------------------------------------
Score is 1-1.
Both teams start with 195HP
--------------------------------------------------
Score is 1-2
Team A starts the round with 195HP. Team B starts the round with 180HP
--------------------------------------------------
Score is 2-2
Both teams start with 190HP.
--------------------------------------------------
Score is 3-2
Team A starts the round with 180HP. Team B starts the round with 190HP
--------------------------------------------------
Score is 3-3.
Both teams start with 185HP.
--------------------------------------------------
*********************************
At some point around here, things go wrong. Team B loses, due to some random kills and round is over quickly.
--------------------------------------------------
Score is now 4-3.
Team A starts the round with 175HP. Team B starts the round with 185HP.
--------------------------------------------------
Score is now 5-3
Team A starts the round with 165HP. Team B starts the round with 185HP


*************************************************
Now Team A PPR is slightly higher, due to easier win for the last few rounds, but the actual teams were balanced.
The only thing that is unbalanced up to this point, was the starting health and the final scores.
*************************************************

*********************************************************
**   BALANCER SWAPS PLAYER A with PLAYER B  **
**   Team B is now a better team than Team A.       **
**   Teams are no longer balanced.                            **
*********************************************************

---------------------------------------------------
VERY easy win for Team B, due to HP and skill advantage.

Score is now 5-4
Team A starts the round with 170HP. Team B starts the round with 180HP
Easy win for Team B, due to HP difference+skill advantage.
---------------------------------------------------

Score is now 5-5
Both teams start with 175HP.
Easy win for Team B, due to HP difference+skill advantage and adrenaline accumulated.
---------------------------------------------------

Score is now 5-6
Team A starts the round with 175HP. Team B starts the round with 165HP.
---------------------------------------------------

Team A is completely disorganized, 3 rounds lost in a row, because the balancer and challenge mode made Team A lose.
Score is now 5-7
Team A starts the round with 175HP. Team B starts the round with 155HP.
---------------------------------------------------


*********************************************************
**   BALANCER SWAPS PLAYER B with PLAYER A  **
**   Team A is now a better team than Team B.       **
**   Teams are AGAIN unbalanced.                             **
*********************************************************

---------------------------------------------------
VERY easy win for Team A, due to HP and skill advantage.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...
...
...
..........
.......
You get the point.
The scores *appear* balanced, but the teams have been unbalanced for the past 4 rounds, and they will keep getting unbalanced due to challenge mode, not the balancer.

The losing team for the last 4 rounds and for the next 4 rounds, no matter if it's Team A or Team B, has no chance to win, since challenge mode combined with balancer, just gives the win to the team that is behind.

Complete disregard of average team skill, depends only on the game score numbers and which team is ahead.

Some players are lucky and get swapped to the winning team, some players are not.

Balancer loses all credibility.
PPR means nothing.
The team scores are kept close at all costs.
The game is a swing that favors Blue/Red team every 1-4 rounds.
Most games are like this.



Thawing enemies with Bio?  You know, that does sound interesting....

Another reason to kick Slayer.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2023, 15:06 by holyspam »

Piglet

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #16 on: March 18, 2023, 15:19 »
Stats saved away and reset. Challenge mode off. Not sure who turned it back on again (Hagis?)

Let's give it a day or two.

Krellsan

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #17 on: March 18, 2023, 16:43 »
"suicidal label", which you can get with hitting ur frozen teammate. That bug is really awful.
That's not a bug. That's there by design. It stops you from having limitless health at no cost to you by suiciding by a teammate every time you get low, or by rocket-jumping into lava for full health like people used to do before we stopped that
You are quite good at sarcasm, i clearly see that, but there a little missunderstanding.  Yes, I am aware that I abused self-thaw with lava quite often, and this was fixed mostly because of my actions. I will not speak about that our level of skills are radically different and that way i tried to take a little bit more chances with stronk enemy. Whatever. Only thing that I'm talking now - is the fact that if a person with the sign of the skull is being hit by a teammate, who has a sufficiently low level of health, then will became a frozen person with the sign of the skull. Apparently frozen people with a skull sign are perceived by the server as alive. That's just only thing that i wanted to say. And that what i called a bug in that situation.

holyspam

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #18 on: March 18, 2023, 16:57 »
"suicidal label", which you can get with hitting ur frozen teammate. That bug is really awful.
That's not a bug. That's there by design. It stops you from having limitless health at no cost to you by suiciding by a teammate every time you get low, or by rocket-jumping into lava for full health like people used to do before we stopped that
You are quite good at sarcasm, i clearly see that, but there a little missunderstanding.  Yes, I am aware that I abused self-thaw with lava quite often, and this was fixed mostly because of my actions. I will not speak about that our level of skills are radically different and that way i tried to take a little bit more chances with stronk enemy. Whatever. Only thing that I'm talking now - is the fact that if a person with the sign of the skull is being hit by a teammate, who has a sufficiently low level of health, then will became a frozen person with the sign of the skull. Apparently frozen people with a skull sign are perceived by the server as alive. That's just only thing that i wanted to say. And that what i called a bug in that situation.
This discussion is not about possible thaw bugs, please move to separate thread.
(Never encountered this)

Piglet

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2023, 19:23 »
It's also not correct. That doesn't happen. Ever. Prove me wrong.

hagis

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2023, 18:55 »
what I would change

remove the code which disables spawn protection when thawing next to frozen teammate (it's confusing to most, encourages stacking frozen players and goo camping), the only reason (as I understand it) for that it was added was to prevent easy turnrounds,. I don't see that as a big problem - if players really concerned about it they can stop stacking frozen players

3psn health is how I prefer things to work,. the game is too easy w/ full health thaws,.  I think standard on mia is good enough it makes it more - though I do think w/o CM it will near impossible for a team comeback

things I disagree with (from holys post)

the maplist - sure it could be done a different way,. on US freon servers the same 10 maps don't get played every time,. the range is much more interesting and weirdly no one complains,. they do this on SoL and HoC differently but in both cases the amount of good maps played is way more - the fact some players want to play same maps over and over is a bug not a feature

the CM story - I think it's turned off now,.  my views on why it is required I said multiple times and I'm open to change my mind  - lets see what happens (CM can always be turned back on depending on what is found!) :)

Piglet

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2023, 18:57 »
I do like the idea of goop contributing to thawing frozen enemies

hagis

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2023, 18:57 »
Stats saved away and reset. Challenge mode off. Not sure who turned it back on again (Hagis?)

Let's give it a day or two.

wth - no I haven't touched it :P

holyspam

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2023, 19:33 »
what I would change

remove the code which disables spawn protection when thawing next to frozen teammate (it's confusing to most, encourages stacking frozen players and goo camping), the only reason (as I understand it) for that it was added was to prevent easy turnrounds,. I don't see that as a big problem - if players really concerned about it they can stop stacking frozen players

hmm....this combined with "groups" thawing faster (i guess due to body heat? xD would make more sense than the current way)



3psn health is how I prefer things to work,. the game is too easy w/ full health thaws,.  I think standard on mia is good enough it makes it more - though I do think w/o CM it will near impossible for a team comeback


the CM story - I think it's turned off now,.  my views on why it is required I said multiple times and I'm open to change my mind  - lets see what happens (CM can always be turned back on depending on what is found!) :)

Funny thing about 3spn health + CM off + 145hp thaws

Initially Piglet disabled CM and left 100/100 thaws, it was working as expected.
Then we reverted to 3spn thaws, but thawed players were dying very easily.

Mostly due to "Shield" not being transferred to the thawed player, only health...

I quickly wrote some basic code that we could use that does the following:
50HP + 50S with an additional 25% of thawer's HP added to both shield and hp
This would bring total hit points between 100-200.

In the meantime, i increased the minimum thaw HP to 145 as a workaround....and it actually works better than expected.

It had some benefits!
1)You start with 100/100, then if you die you start with 145, so it punishes people who mindlessly rush. - 3spn is intended to work this way
2)The thawer will be healed up to 145HP after finishing the thaw.

It seems to feel more natural than challenge mode and we do have comebacks even from 7-1...just not the un-natural comebacks of challenge mode where almost every other game was a comeback.


the maplist - sure it could be done a different way,. on US freon servers the same 10 maps don't get played every time,. the range is much more interesting and weirdly no one complains,. they do this on SoL and HoC differently but in both cases the amount of good maps played is way more - the fact some players want to play same maps over and over is a bug not a feature

There are many good maps in there, but having too many options means that people will vote the one they know.
Some of the maps included are broken, some are inferior versions, some are bad, some have never been played, these should be removed.
But the maplist is difficult to manage.

Piglet

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2023, 20:22 »
I tried this locally and it works....enemy goop defrosts you rather than damages, when frozen....


Freon_Pawn>State Frozen>function TakeDamage :
Code: [Select]
if ((self.GetTeamNum() != InstigatedBy.GetTeamNum()) &&
(DamageType == class'DamTypeBioGlob' || DamageType == class'DamType_BioGlob')){
GiveHealth(Damage, 100);
}

Piglet

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2023, 20:29 »
In the meantime, i increased the minimum thaw HP to 145 as a workaround....and it actually works better than expected.

Works so well, I suspect we can leave it like that

Jozz

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2023, 20:57 »
Very cool!

Piglet

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2023, 20:59 »
I did some testing, made it configurable, fixed some configuration settings so the right ones show up properly offline (there may be more to fix).

Let's try it tomorrow.

holyspam

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2023, 21:46 »
I tried this locally and it works....enemy goop defrosts you rather than damages, when frozen....


Freon_Pawn>State Frozen>function TakeDamage :
Code: [Select]
if ((self.GetTeamNum() != InstigatedBy.GetTeamNum()) &&
(DamageType == class'DamTypeBioGlob' || DamageType == class'DamType_BioGlob')){
GiveHealth(Damage, 100);
}
This would give insta-thaws haha, maybe 10% of the dmg?

Miauz55555

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2023, 22:29 »
Not a fan of the bio thawing at all, would change the gameplay compleately. .. For example you now rather push enemys together so they lost there spawn protection. With it you would need to push them as far away as possible.

And you can't use bio anymore. Like you are on low HP than just step in enemy bio blobs, when there are more around. Than with a bit luck the fozen corps falls into the other blobs. Or use a rocket jump into the bio goop.

You can rather make own team seccondary linkgun thaws, if you want avoid a bio frag while thawing.

Also a thaw bio frag is one of the few situations where you can frag Phan or DVaw.