Making this post public for discussion.
If I don't post it today, I will keep forgetting.
quick summary:
High priority:==========================================================================================
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Balancer + Challenge mode - game breaker combo[/b] -
[Done-testing]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-> winning team gets ahead by 3 points, score is 9-6
-> challenge mode means 140hp for winning team and 170hp for losing team at this point
-> team that had 3 losing rounds, now has lower average PPR due to lower performance
-> balancer is triggered and balances the PPR
-> a good player is swapped to the losing team
-> losing team wins 3 rounds in a row, because 125-140 starting HP means you're dead with 1 shot
-> losing team is now full of adrenaline because they easily won the few rounds
-> losing team proceeds to win the game in 70% of games
>>> Result <<<
1. The player skill was not balanced
2. The conditions to achieve victory were not balanced (one team had lower starting HP)
3. People whine about the balancer swapping incorrect players
4. The team that just lost 3 rounds in a row, probably spent all their adr trying to win the round, but the team that won 3 rounds has more adr to spend
5. The score number was balanced! 9-9 is balanced!#win
My suggestions:
Disable challenge mode completely
- offers nothing but dumb kills, stats that do not reflect reality, breaks the balancer and creates easy "comebacks"---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Challenge mode rework: [On hold]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-> takes away HP based on won rounds, that is 5 per round, up to 45 when your team score is 9-X
-> takes additonal away HP from winning team, that is 5 per extra round that your team is ahead compared to the enemy team
-> allows "weaker" team to win
-> inflates PPR of lower skilled players
-> reduces PPR of higher skilled players
>>> Result <<<
Most players are "compressed" into the same PPR range between 6-12, instead of a range from 5-20
Makes the PPR scale non-linear.
Suggestion:
Disable or adjust formula---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Balancer: [Done partial]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-> works perfect in picking the correct numbers according to its programming, including when and where to swap
>>> Result <<<
-> expects linear scaling
-> takes the average PPR and in most cases does a good job with the numbersSuggestions:
Maybe tweak the HistoricalPPR/CurrentPPR weight formula and maybe add priority picking/exclusions - Done
Add the (thaws+kills)/deaths ratio into calculation for similar PPR and use that for balance, see how it works.
==========================================================================================
Lower priority issues:==========================================================================================
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Equalizer: [ToDo]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-> Randomly swaps a player even if they're alive when someone leaves
>>> Result <<<
Breaks the game for the swapped player
Suggest changing the behaviour or disabling it
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bots: -
[ToDo]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are useful for low player counts, but they are completely OP and hard to hit.
Suggestion:
They should be removed from the game when player counts are 12 or higher.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bio-camping: [On hold]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The way spawn protection works now, it checks for any nearby teammates
>>> Result <<<
In the olden days, we used to always get spawn protection after being thawed and you would thaw nearby teammates too, without losing it.
Then you could resurrect - usually from the adr received by thawing them - and you would still not lose spawn protection.
We made necro combo disable spawn protection.
Spawn protected people are unable to thaw frozen teammates next to them, unless they move around a bit.
Disabled spawn protection for grouped people
Some are abusing this, to land 1 kill and then die.
Shooting the frozen player and dealing full dmg like you shot an alive player and killing the player next to him is unfair.
Suggestion:
Force the biocamper to shoot the person being thawed, not shoot at the frozen body and benefit.
- Only disable spawn protection for more than 3 teammates nearby.
- Disable splash damage for frozen pawns. (make the frozen bodies react like objects, instead of players)==========================================================================================
Other:==========================================================================================
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Available maps: -
[On hold]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The alternative maplist has been in play for 3 years now, the people have chosen their favorite maps, shockingly, it's the same maps that were chosen over the last 20 years by every other server.
Suggestion:
Retire the never played maps and bring back the original classic maps (example: Rankin-FE, Lea original, Under original, Grendel), the community likes them for a reason.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Overtime suicides: -
[On hold]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently in overtime you need to suicide to save yourself from dying.
>>> Result <<<
Loss of score, slow thaw
Suggestion:
Change the way suicide works in overtime---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Necro combo priority -
[Done]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently it's random/oldest thaw priority
>>> Result <<<
People get resurrected when thawed at 90-95%.
Dead teammates stay dead - no chance of thaw unless someone resurrects
Suggestion:
Pick players who are dead first, then oldest death, check for completion (don't resurrect at 80%+)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Client Reporting rate -
[Done]---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
++ Added fallback to default logic as a player-configurable option** Changed "Desired Net Update Rate" name to "Client reporting rate" as it reflects better what it does++ Added slider with 3 levels for the new logicSlider position:
- Left - minimum rate allowed by the server
- Middle - equal to half of the configured framerate (FPS * 0.5)
- Right - equal to the configured framerate
The final value is set between the server configured Min/Max values upon joining, and also the configured Netspeed divided by 100:
- (MinRate < Final_Reporting_Rate < MaxRate) && ( MinRate < Final_Reporting_Rate < Netspeed * 0.01)
The configured
minimum is 84(or 12 milliseconds)
The configured
maximum is 333(or 3 milliseconds)
Example with 200FPS in your ini and 20.000 netspeed
Left position:- 84 updates/second - update every 12 milliseconds
Middle position:- 101 updates/second - update every 10 milliseconds
Right position:- 201 updates/second - update every 5 milliseconds
Netspeed:
- 20.000 netspeed limits the max rate to 200/sec
- 10.001 netspeed limits the max rate to 100/sec
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Fix lg hit registration logic - [WIP]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Add some extra messages for spawn protection, healing etc - WIP
I agree Challenge mode needs to go. u have my vote for that and Quadros so thats 2 already.
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54
Making this post public for discussion.
If I don't post it today, I will keep forgetting.
quick summary:
==========================================================================================
High priority issue:
==========================================================================================
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Challenge mode:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-> takes away HP based on won rounds, that is 5 per round, up to 45 when your team score is 9-X
-> takes additonal away HP from winning team, that is 5 per extra round that your team is ahead compared to the enemy team
-> allows "weaker" team to win
-> inflates PPR of lower skilled players
-> reduces PPR of higher skilled players
>>> Result <<<
Most players are "compressed" into the same PPR range between 6-12, instead of a range from 5-20
Makes the PPR scale non-linear.
Suggestion:
Disable or adjust formula
I mostly agree to this point, even though I am torn between plainly disabling challenge mode or influencing the result by changing the formula.
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Balancer:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-> works perfect in picking the correct numbers according to its programming, including when and where to swap
>>> Result <<<
-> expects linear scaling
-> takes the average PPR and in most cases does a good job with the numbers
Suggestion:
Leave as it is, maybe tweak the HistoricalPPR/CurrentPPR weight formula and maybe add priority picking/exclusions
Technically the balancer works fine and does what she should be. My main issue with it is that it balances too often and especially late game switches are really annoying me lately. For me it should be set a tad less sensitive and if technically possible (without storing too much data what might cause issues otherwise) there should be a limit of how often a player should be switched, for example maximum two times per game.
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Balancer + Challenge mode - game breaker combo
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-> winning team gets ahead by 3 points, score is 9-6
-> challenge mode means 140hp for winning team and 170hp for losing team at this point
-> team that had 3 losing rounds, now has lower average PPR due to lower performance
-> balancer is triggered and balances the PPR
-> a good player is swapped to the losing team
-> losing team wins 3 rounds in a row, because 125-140 starting HP means you're dead with 1 shot
-> losing team is now full of adrenaline because they easily won the few rounds
-> losing team proceeds to win the game in 70% of games
>>> Result <<<
1. The player skill was not balanced
2. The conditions to achieve victory were not balanced (one team had lower starting HP)
3. People whine about the balancer swapping incorrect players
4. The team that just lost 3 rounds in a row, probably spent all their adr trying to win the round, but the team that won 3 rounds has more adr to spend
5. The score number was balanced! 9-9 is balanced!#win
My suggestions:
Disable challenge mode completely
- offers nothing but dumb kills, stats that do not reflect reality, breaks the balancer and creates easy "comebacks"
Add the (thaws+kills)/deaths ratio into calculation for similar PPR and use that for balance, see how it works.
While I was not exactly sure about the points above I more or less completely agree with this point. Comebacks have become the standard nowadays because of the problems described. I would definitely prefer to change the ppr calculation because it could maybe help getting a bit more freon into the game again.
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54
==========================================================================================
Lower priority issues:
==========================================================================================
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Equalizer:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-> Randomly swaps a player even if they're alive when someone leaves
>>> Result <<<
Breaks the game for the swapped player
Suggest changing the behaviour or disabling it
I agree with this one, change the player after the round, that is enough to balance.
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bots:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
They are useful for low player counts, but they are completely OP and hard to hit.
Suggestion:
They should be removed from the game when player counts are 12 or higher.
I am really unsure about this one. On the one hand the bot is causing problems (even though that is not always for the team he is playing for) at the same time I don't know if missing the bot really results in "equal" teams. Also it would be interessting to see how this would affect the balancer.
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bio-camping:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The way spawn protection works now, it checks for any nearby teammates
>>> Result <<<
In the olden days, we used to always get spawn protection after being thawed and you would thaw nearby teammates too, without losing it.
Then you could resurrect - usually from the adr received by thawing them - and you would still not lose spawn protection.
We made necro combo disable spawn protection.
Spawn protected people are unable to thaw frozen teammates next to them, unless they move around a bit.
Disabled spawn protection for grouped people
Some are abusing this, to land 1 kill and then die.
Shooting the frozen player and dealing full dmg like you shot an alive player and killing the player next to him is unfair.
Suggestion:
Force the biocamper to shoot the person being thawed, not shoot at the frozen body and benefit.
- Only disable spawn protection for more than 3 teammates nearby.
- Disable splash damage for frozen pawns. (make the frozen bodies react like objects, instead of players)
I definitely agree with the idea to disable the spawn protection for more than three teammates below. From what I understood about the disabling of the splash damage I would say this needs testing, but I see a lot of potential about this one.
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54
==========================================================================================
Other:
==========================================================================================
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Available maps:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The alternative maplist has been in play for 3 years now, the people have chosen their favorite maps, shockingly, it's the same maps that were chosen over the last 20 years by every other server.
Suggestion:
Retire the never played maps and bring back the original classic maps (example: Rankin-FE, Lea original, Under original, Grendel), the community likes them for a reason.
I definitely agree with this point, maybe we could have the alternative map-list with these maps and then add a couple of maps from time to time to that list so ppl could try other maps if they really want to. At the moment the list is filled with way too many maps that are rarely played.
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Overtime suicides:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently in overtime you need to suicide to save yourself from dying.
>>> Result <<<
Loss of score, slow thaw
Suggestion:
Change the way suicide works in overtime
Given that suicide in overtime is a strategic decision, I totally agree with this point.
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Necro combo priority
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently it's random/oldest thaw priority
>>> Result <<<
People get resurrected when thawed at 90-95%.
Dead teammates stay dead - no chance of thaw unless someone resurrects
Suggestion:
Pick players who are dead first, then oldest death, check for completion (don't resurrect at 80%+)
Definitely agree with this one.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Change "Desired Net Update Rate" name to "Client tickrate" and change options from a slider to Full, Half, Minimum and Stock - WIP
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Fix lg hit registration logic - WIP
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Add some extra messages for spawn protection, healing etc - WIP[/quote]
Overall I think there are a lot of good ideas in this post - what do the others think?
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54
Disable Challenge mode or adjust formula
Remove challenge mode, then probably need to change thawing back to 3spn thawing logic: you thaw with the thawer's health or the average player health.
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54
Suggestion:
Balancer: Leave as it is, maybe tweak the HistoricalPPR/CurrentPPR weight formula and maybe add priority picking/exclusions
Suggestion: Add in a check on player count - PPR for n players, and possibly even "this map" at particular player count. Contrast or Goose you can get extremely high player counts and so massive PPR. I got over 22 PPR as at the end of one map yesterday. That doesn't translate to a 3v3.
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54
Add the (thaws+kills)/deaths ratio into calculation for similar PPR and use that for balance, see how it works.
Sounds complex. The lack of it in the calculation results in some interesting maps (killers vs thawers at about the same PPR average)
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54
Equalizer:
Suggest changing the behaviour or disabling it
Need specifics of how it would work. I can give you the code to fix. It's more complex than it looks...
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54
Bots:
They are useful for low player counts, but they are completely OP and hard to hit.
Suggestion:
They should be removed from the game when player counts are 12 or higher.
I find them easy to hit but lethal up close! It sort of evens out
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54
Bio-camping:
Suggestion:
- Disable splash damage for frozen pawns. (make the frozen bodies react like objects, instead of players)
Should be possible. I like it. Give me some code for that? Perhaps configurable radius so we can tweak it?
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54
Available maps:
Retire the never played maps and bring back the original classic maps (example: Rankin-FE, Lea original, Under original, Grendel), the community likes them for a reason.
There are good maps out there. It would be nice if someone was willing to work through them to help identify / tweak maps that might work.
I've added Rankin-FE, NewAge-FE (will work for small player count) and UCantHide-FE (which will be a silly map for low numbers sometimes).
Grendel is the biggest pile of shite out there for Freon.
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54Overtime suicides:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currently in overtime you need to suicide to save yourself from dying.
That's how it should be. Suggestion, if you're on the team with more live teammates make it even more slow in proportion to the player count difference. If it's 8 v 1 then it should take a really really long time to thaw. As the team numbers get closer, then thaw faster.
Quote from: holyspam on March 12, 2023, 22:54Overtime suicides:
Necro combo priority
Currently it's random/oldest thaw priority
People get resurrected when thawed at 90-95%.
Dead teammates stay dead - no chance of thaw unless someone resurrects
Suggestion:Pick players who are dead first, then oldest death, check for completion (don't resurrect at 80%+)
The current rule is to select the frozen/dead player who has been frozen/dead the longest of anyone in that state. If you're the player who died before any remaining frozen player was frozen then it will choose you.
Dead players should possibly be first in the list
Not sure about the 80%+ part. You have that information that someone is 80+ on the screen. You could wait. I see people using res on the team when it's 7v1 and they're on the team with 7 live players. You shouldn't "fix stupid".
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Change "Desired Net Update Rate" name to "Client tickrate" and change options from a slider to Full, Half, Minimum and Stock - WIP
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Fix lg hit registration logic - WIP
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Add some extra messages for spawn protection, healing etc - WIP
Jeez. Maybe you shouldn't fix something that isn't broken? And maybe for example create a vote on these parameters? Apparently just leaving everything "as it be" is not an option.
Why not just divide the servers into kindergarten and professionals-tryharders. Something alike - u shall not pass if ur ppr lower than 10! 8! above! lower! Add some mightiest bots there for creating a crowd if there not many ppl online. And then we will see which server have more online and on which one situation is healthier and friendlier. Not everyone here wants to be a grand achiever or instantly do it in a competition mode. Jeez, dudes. With these settings U literally pull out, throwing overboard specifically me, and some other people, who just can't reach your skill. My complaints on this freon is just only about "suicidal label", which you can get with hitting ur frozen teammate. That bug is really awful. Everything else - just about human behavior and "achiever pro" issues.
Quote from: Krellsan on March 15, 2023, 13:35"suicidal label", which you can get with hitting ur frozen teammate. That bug is really awful.
That's not a bug. That's there by design. It stops you from having limitless health at no cost to you by suiciding by a teammate every time you get low, or by rocket-jumping into lava for full health like people used to do before we stopped that.
...and by the way, just in case you didn't know...we've spent a lot of time tweaking Freon. Small changes here and there to make it better over time. Lots of thought goes into each change. You're just seeing some of this in the thread
Quote from: Piglet on March 15, 2023, 09:35
Should be possible. I like it. Give me some code for that? Perhaps configurable radius so we can tweak it?
Changing the UClass from xPawn to something else might make frozen corpses go a bit weird on movers and bypass blocking volumes. Might also prevent instathaws from lava dipping. I'm not really sure on how to change it but I'll have a play around with it.
I was gonna suggest making the pawn have zero collision, but I like using people as shields when I'm thawing them so disregard.
Quote from: Piglet on March 15, 2023, 09:35
There are good maps out there. It would be nice if someone was willing to work through them to help identify / tweak maps that might work.
I'm happy to tweak maps if players have suggestions/find exploits. Things like fixing sticky BSP, changing platform lifts into pillar lifts to stop them from getting stuck in a bump loop when a frozen corpse is underneath them etc.
I'm still working on the new pathing for trast and removing the collision from the lamps. If anyone has any requests for map tweaks add me on discord: AngelPrincess#7837 (old acc is dead)
Quote from: Piglet on March 15, 2023, 09:35
I've added Rankin-FE
:D
Can't we just adjust the Class'BioBlob'.Default.DamageRadius, or is it something else that causes the issue?
I'm not entirely sure, I found this section in XWeapons.BioGlob under Actors->Projectiles:
function BlowUp(Vector HitLocation)
{
if (Role == ROLE_Authority)
{
Damage = BaseDamage + Damage * GoopLevel;
DamageRadius = DamageRadius * GoopVolume;
MomentumTransfer = MomentumTransfer * GoopVolume;
if (Physics == PHYS_Flying) MomentumTransfer *= 0.5;
DelayedHurtRadius(Damage, DamageRadius, MyDamageType, MomentumTransfer, HitLocation);
But I can't find the DamageRadius variable in the XWeapons.u/XWeapons_rc.u/ XGame.u files. Do you know what files I'm suppose to look in?
I also found this in the Redeemer projectile:
HurtRadius(Damage, DamageRadius*0.125, MyDamageType, MomentumTransfer, Location);
So maybe setting a HurtRadius is the way to go, but I'm still pretty unsure.
Changing the functionality of the weapon is a little daunting as people have gotten used to how it works, so this would unintentionally nerf its use outside of biocamping.
------- damage adjustments ---------
@Piglet
Cannot check the code now, but we can easily add some extra checks in the 3SPN "ReduceDamage" function that would cover all weapon damage, not just Bio.
@wife
The way 3SPN/Freon is set-up now, changing Pawn class would create major issues, also creates huge processing times when spawning/destroying Actor classes.
That code is the relevant block, but I would prefer to leave the behaviour for the frozen player as-is and change only the splash/spread to nearby players.
--------- 3spn thaws/challengemode --------------
@Piglet
Changing 3spn thaw logic to take into account score advantage, but leaving the starting and resurrected health/shield to full should be good.
-- I say we start by adjusting the current code to always start at full HP. --
@Krellsan
This actually helps lower skilled players more than high skilled players, who usually adapt to running around the map with low health.
Expect 20-30% higher PPR on the server for people in the 0-6 range
Maybe 20-50% higher for 6-9 range and maybe 50-100% higher for >10PPR players
Range of 15-20 might become common for players who already have 10+
This will help the lower skilled players, as they would now be matched with 15+ PPR teammates for the average.
------------- Score calculations ------------
@Piglet
Like you said...you had 22 PPR...which is because having a lot of players to thaw you is elliminating the effect of challenge mode.
With regular 16 players it would be like 12-20 without challenge mode, depending on map/game.
If we remove it, PPR history will have to be emptied and to begin from scratch.
Since the change will affect the scores and gameplay, it would take 30 games for every player for the balancer to work properly.
If we set the current average as the "last game" and remove the other 29 datapoints, it should allow the new system to start calculating with the new "gameplay"
PPR-per-players or per-players-per-map would require a lot of additional database scripts/stats logic to work, yes it would create a "perfect balancer" but I think just using per-player-count covers 90% of edge-cases and does not require a full table of maps, with different map versions to make it work.
------- Thaw+Kill/Death ratio ------
It might actually happen more frequently, since it would take both kills and thaws at 50% weight, compared to deaths.
Very experimental, but it might work instead of PPR for rounds/matches where the PPR difference is <0.5 between teams, but one team is getting ahead easily
--------- equalizer ---------------
Sure, I was just thinking adding some delays or extra checks, before the final swap, it looks like it's just instant and random now.
---------------- resurrect logic ------------------
Yes I am aware of the current logic and agree, but I am talking about the case where most of the team is dead, you are being hunted by enemies, trying to reach the 90% thawed to touch before the enemy kills you, it resurrects them near you and they also die.
But the biggest issue is the Dead priority - only when not in overtime and also not for fresh joiners.
What about teamdamage shouldn't be removed ? I really hate when I hit my teammate I lose hp and today I died because one of my team walked into my shot that doesn't happen on warfare it only happens on freon
Stop spamming them. Curse them (politely if possible) when they do it!
RFF is part of Freon. It's a team game. If you shoot teammates or they jump in front of you...that's what you get.
The alternative means that you're free to spam anything anywhere at any time with no adverse consequences.
Balancer + Challenge mode - game breaker combo
Disable challenge mode completely / AGREE
Just makes the balancing unpredictable and harder if there are multiple parameters doing it
Bots:
remove after when 12+ players / AGREE
Bots are annoying to play against because they move unnaturally so you always have adjust. And coming around a corner in contact with "flakbot" means instant death.
Bio-camping:
Force the biocamper to shoot the person being thawed, not shoot at the frozen body and benefit. /AGREE
- Only disable spawn protection for more than 3 teammates nearby. /AGREE
- Disable splash damage for frozen pawns. (make the frozen bodies react like objects, instead of players) /AGREE
The annoying thing about bio camp for me is, that even thou, the bio shot comes from far away and you react by trying to dodge away, you still die or loose most of your health because the damage range is so huge. So one option could only be limit the damage range. But I would still be open to try the suggested changes.
This is probably a silly idea, but what if enemy bio thaws the players a little... like 25% so there is a kinda risk reward aspect to the bio camping... I dont know... could be interesting. I dont' know how hard it would be to implement thou :)
I did turn off challenge mode yesterday, and people have not yet noticed. I suspect it won't work well. Let's see.
Bots...possible. The code in this area is rather horrid. I try to touch it as little as possible!
Thawing enemies with Bio? You know, that does sound interesting....
We noticed - I gave Lakana a HS when it was 9-4 and he just kept coming at me! It might seem that challenge mode wouldn't be needed when the balancer works so well, but apparently it's still useful. IMO apart from a few exceptions, the current setup works well and is very fair.
Bio thawing would be great, and a big surprise for those pesky campers!
Quote from: Piglet on March 17, 2023, 14:50
I did turn off challenge mode yesterday, and people have not yet noticed. I suspect it won't work well. Let's see.
Challenge mode is not a small game change that affects 1% of the game, it's affecting one of the most BASIC rules of the game, your Health Points.
When it's changed,
old match history MUST be reset and the current Average PPR to be set as average, that way it can quickly adjust to the new game rules, without starting from zero stats.
Otherwise it takes 30 games of
6v6 or more (and was it 4 or 5 rounds?) for
every player to gather proper statistics for it and then we can have proper balancing.
Just turning it off, will take 2-3 weeks to properly gather statistics and that's just for the everyday player.
People who don't join during this period will still have a PPR calculation based on a different type of game rules.
Just turning it off for 1-2 matches will 100% bring bad balance, all it proves is that you must reset the scores.
Nothing more.
You can use CTF stats to balance at this point, it will have the same effect.
I swear, everytime i tried turning it off, someone turns it on after 5 minutes. "SEE IT'S NOT WORKING!!!"
--------------------------------------------------
Team A vs Team B
Score is 0-0Balancer creates perfectly balanced teams, equal skills on both teams. The only moment that challenge mode doesn't affect the game.
--------------------------------------------------
Score is 1-0.Team A starts the round with 190HP. Team B starts the round with 200HP
--------------------------------------------------
Score is 1-1.Both teams start with 195HP
--------------------------------------------------
Score is 1-2Team A starts the round with 195HP. Team B starts the round with 180HP
--------------------------------------------------
Score is 2-2Both teams start with 190HP.
--------------------------------------------------
Score is 3-2Team A starts the round with 180HP. Team B starts the round with 190HP
--------------------------------------------------
Score is 3-3.Both teams start with 185HP.
--------------------------------------------------
*********************************
At some point around here, things go wrong. Team B loses, due to some random kills and round is over quickly.
--------------------------------------------------
Score is now 4-3.Team A starts the round with 175HP. Team B starts the round with 185HP.
--------------------------------------------------
Score is now 5-3Team A starts the round with 165HP. Team B starts the round with 185HP
*************************************************
Now Team A PPR is slightly higher, due to easier win for the last few rounds, but the actual teams were balanced.
The only thing that is unbalanced up to this point, was the starting health and the final scores.
*************************************************
*********************************************************
** BALANCER SWAPS PLAYER A with PLAYER B **
** Team B is now a better team than Team A. **
** Teams are no longer balanced. **
*********************************************************---------------------------------------------------
VERY easy win for Team B, due to HP and skill advantage.
Score is now 5-4Team A starts the round with 170HP. Team B starts the round with 180HP
Easy win for Team B, due to HP difference+skill advantage.
---------------------------------------------------
Score is now 5-5Both teams start with 175HP.
Easy win for Team B, due to HP difference+skill advantage and adrenaline accumulated.
---------------------------------------------------
Score is now 5-6Team A starts the round with 175HP. Team B starts the round with 165HP.
---------------------------------------------------
Team A is completely disorganized, 3 rounds lost in a row, because the balancer and challenge mode made Team A lose.
Score is now 5-7Team A starts the round with 175HP. Team B starts the round with 155HP.
---------------------------------------------------
*********************************************************
** BALANCER SWAPS PLAYER B with PLAYER A **
** Team A is now a better team than Team B. **
** Teams are AGAIN unbalanced. **
*********************************************************---------------------------------------------------
VERY easy win for Team A, due to HP and skill advantage.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...
...
...
..........
.......
You get the point.
The scores *appear* balanced, but the teams have been unbalanced for the past 4 rounds, and they will keep getting unbalanced due to challenge mode, not the balancer.
The losing team for the last 4 rounds and for the next 4 rounds, no matter if it's Team A or Team B, has no chance to win, since challenge mode combined with balancer, just gives the win to the team that is behind.
Complete disregard of average team skill, depends only on the game score numbers and which team is ahead.
Some players are lucky and get swapped to the winning team, some players are not.
Balancer loses all credibility.
PPR means nothing.
The team scores are kept close at all costs.
The game is a swing that favors Blue/Red team every 1-4 rounds.
Most games are like this.
Quote from: Piglet on March 17, 2023, 14:50
Thawing enemies with Bio? You know, that does sound interesting....
Another reason to kick Slayer.
Stats saved away and reset. Challenge mode off. Not sure who turned it back on again (Hagis?)
Let's give it a day or two.
Quote from: Piglet on March 15, 2023, 16:55
Quote from: Krellsan on March 15, 2023, 13:35"suicidal label", which you can get with hitting ur frozen teammate. That bug is really awful.
That's not a bug. That's there by design. It stops you from having limitless health at no cost to you by suiciding by a teammate every time you get low, or by rocket-jumping into lava for full health like people used to do before we stopped that
You are quite good at sarcasm, i clearly see that, but there a little missunderstanding. Yes, I am aware that I abused self-thaw with lava quite often, and this was fixed mostly because of my actions. I will not speak about that our level of skills are radically different and that way i tried to take a little bit more chances with stronk enemy. Whatever. Only thing that I'm talking now - is the fact that if a person with the sign of the skull is being hit by a teammate, who has a sufficiently low level of health, then will became a frozen person with the sign of the skull. Apparently frozen people with a skull sign are perceived by the server as alive. That's just only thing that i wanted to say. And that what i called a bug in that situation.
Quote from: Krellsan on March 18, 2023, 16:43
Quote from: Piglet on March 15, 2023, 16:55
Quote from: Krellsan on March 15, 2023, 13:35"suicidal label", which you can get with hitting ur frozen teammate. That bug is really awful.
That's not a bug. That's there by design. It stops you from having limitless health at no cost to you by suiciding by a teammate every time you get low, or by rocket-jumping into lava for full health like people used to do before we stopped that
You are quite good at sarcasm, i clearly see that, but there a little missunderstanding. Yes, I am aware that I abused self-thaw with lava quite often, and this was fixed mostly because of my actions. I will not speak about that our level of skills are radically different and that way i tried to take a little bit more chances with stronk enemy. Whatever. Only thing that I'm talking now - is the fact that if a person with the sign of the skull is being hit by a teammate, who has a sufficiently low level of health, then will became a frozen person with the sign of the skull. Apparently frozen people with a skull sign are perceived by the server as alive. That's just only thing that i wanted to say. And that what i called a bug in that situation.
This discussion is not about possible thaw bugs, please move to separate thread.
(Never encountered this)
It's also not correct. That doesn't happen. Ever. Prove me wrong.
what I would change
remove the code which disables spawn protection when thawing next to frozen teammate (it's confusing to most, encourages stacking frozen players and goo camping), the only reason (as I understand it) for that it was added was to prevent easy turnrounds,. I don't see that as a big problem - if players really concerned about it they can stop stacking frozen players
3psn health is how I prefer things to work,. the game is too easy w/ full health thaws,. I think standard on mia is good enough it makes it more - though I do think w/o CM it will near impossible for a team comeback
things I disagree with (from holys post)
the maplist - sure it could be done a different way,. on US freon servers the same 10 maps don't get played every time,. the range is much more interesting and weirdly no one complains,. they do this on SoL and HoC differently but in both cases the amount of good maps played is way more - the fact some players want to play same maps over and over is a bug not a feature
the CM story - I think it's turned off now,. my views on why it is required I said multiple times and I'm open to change my mind - lets see what happens (CM can always be turned back on depending on what is found!) :)
I do like the idea of goop contributing to thawing frozen enemies
Quote from: Piglet on March 18, 2023, 15:19
Stats saved away and reset. Challenge mode off. Not sure who turned it back on again (Hagis?)
Let's give it a day or two.
wth - no I haven't touched it :P
Quote from: hagis on March 21, 2023, 18:55
what I would change
remove the code which disables spawn protection when thawing next to frozen teammate (it's confusing to most, encourages stacking frozen players and goo camping), the only reason (as I understand it) for that it was added was to prevent easy turnrounds,. I don't see that as a big problem - if players really concerned about it they can stop stacking frozen players
hmm....this combined with "groups" thawing faster (i guess due to body heat? xD would make more sense than the current way)
Quote from: hagis on March 21, 2023, 18:55
3psn health is how I prefer things to work,. the game is too easy w/ full health thaws,. I think standard on mia is good enough it makes it more - though I do think w/o CM it will near impossible for a team comeback
the CM story - I think it's turned off now,. my views on why it is required I said multiple times and I'm open to change my mind - lets see what happens (CM can always be turned back on depending on what is found!) :)
Funny thing about 3spn health + CM off + 145hp thaws
Initially Piglet disabled CM and left 100/100 thaws, it was working as expected.
Then we reverted to 3spn thaws, but thawed players were dying very easily.
Mostly due to "Shield" not being transferred to the thawed player, only health...
I quickly wrote some basic code that we could use that does the following:
50HP + 50S with an additional 25% of thawer's HP added to both shield and hp
This would bring total hit points between 100-200.
In the meantime, i increased the minimum thaw HP to 145 as a workaround....and it actually works better than expected.
It had some benefits!
1)You start with 100/100, then if you die you start with 145, so it punishes people who mindlessly rush. - 3spn is intended to work this way
2)The thawer will be healed up to 145HP after finishing the thaw.
It seems to feel more natural than challenge mode and we do have comebacks even from 7-1...just not the un-natural comebacks of challenge mode where almost every other game was a comeback.
Quote from: hagis on March 21, 2023, 18:55
the maplist - sure it could be done a different way,. on US freon servers the same 10 maps don't get played every time,. the range is much more interesting and weirdly no one complains,. they do this on SoL and HoC differently but in both cases the amount of good maps played is way more - the fact some players want to play same maps over and over is a bug not a feature
There are many good maps in there, but having too many options means that people will vote the one they know.
Some of the maps included are broken, some are inferior versions, some are bad, some have never been played, these should be removed.
But the maplist is difficult to manage.
I tried this locally and it works....enemy goop defrosts you rather than damages, when frozen....
Freon_Pawn>State Frozen>function TakeDamage :
if ((self.GetTeamNum() != InstigatedBy.GetTeamNum()) &&
(DamageType == class'DamTypeBioGlob' || DamageType == class'DamType_BioGlob')){
GiveHealth(Damage, 100);
}
Quote from: holyspam on March 21, 2023, 19:33
In the meantime, i increased the minimum thaw HP to 145 as a workaround....and it actually works better than expected.
Works so well, I suspect we can leave it like that
Very cool!
I did some testing, made it configurable, fixed some configuration settings so the right ones show up properly offline (there may be more to fix).
Let's try it tomorrow.
Quote from: Piglet on March 21, 2023, 20:22
I tried this locally and it works....enemy goop defrosts you rather than damages, when frozen....
Freon_Pawn>State Frozen>function TakeDamage :
if ((self.GetTeamNum() != InstigatedBy.GetTeamNum()) &&
(DamageType == class'DamTypeBioGlob' || DamageType == class'DamType_BioGlob')){
GiveHealth(Damage, 100);
}
This would give insta-thaws haha, maybe 10% of the dmg?
Not a fan of the bio thawing at all, would change the gameplay compleately. .. For example you now rather push enemys together so they lost there spawn protection. With it you would need to push them as far away as possible.
And you can't use bio anymore. Like you are on low HP than just step in enemy bio blobs, when there are more around. Than with a bit luck the fozen corps falls into the other blobs. Or use a rocket jump into the bio goop.
You can rather make own team seccondary linkgun thaws, if you want avoid a bio frag while thawing.
Also a thaw bio frag is one of the few situations where you can frag Phan or DVaw.
Quote from: Miauz55555 on March 21, 2023, 22:29
Not a fan of the bio thawing at all, would change the gameplay compleately. .. For example you now rather push enemys together so they lost there spawn protection. With it you would need to push them as far away as possible.
You'd have to use something other than Bio. They already have no thaw protection, so shoot them!
Quote from: holyspam on March 21, 2023, 21:46
This would give insta-thaws haha, maybe 10% of the dmg?
Let's start with (configurable) 50%, and turn on thaw puff of smoke
(https://miasma.rocks/images/freon_settings.jpg)
Quote from: Piglet on March 22, 2023, 13:14
Quote from: Miauz55555 on March 21, 2023, 22:29
Not a fan of the bio thawing at all, would change the gameplay compleately. .. For example you now rather push enemys together so they lost there spawn protection. With it you would need to push them as far away as possible.
You'd have to use something other than Bio. They already have no thaw protection, so shoot them!
Quote from: holyspam on March 21, 2023, 21:46
This would give insta-thaws haha, maybe 10% of the dmg?
Let's start with (configurable) 50%, and turn on thaw puff of smoke
(https://miasma.rocks/images/freon_settings.jpg)
FYI, fully charged bio can deal 200+ damage
Then don't shoot corpses....
Ok - let's try 25%, and a fix to the webadmin to make it editable properly there.
210 damage .. It's a high reward high risk weapon as it's a slow big blob, long and loud charging as well as short range. .. Would be ~53% thaw at 25%. .. And a single blob does 35 -> ~9% at 25% .. So just rocked jump into a missed full bio with the several blobs when you are low on HP and you are half thawed.
https://liandri.beyondunreal.com/Bio_Rifle
Than rather remove Bio, and LG because a HS is overpowered.
.
Edit: Or put thaw protection on for 1.5 secconds all the time.
It's only thawing if you're frozen...so the enemy player has to fire goop at frozen player (or frozen player has to land in enemy goop blobs). If you can arrange to rocket jump into it - feel free.
KK, but don't compain when players abuse the bio thaw than.
Is it intentional that the bio thaw doesn't complete if the last player standing dies in the bio hit? The corpse shows 100% health but doesn't respawn.
It would for instance if a corpse was pushed into lava, even after the last player dies..
I think almoust all weapons are OP depending on the situation. Full rox in tight corners, shock combo on medium range, lg hs (but lg hs is really rare I have a good aim and I usually only get smth like 3 hs per mach). But I think the difference is that they still work as intented and the bio is hugely different in Freon than in other game types. There are no static corpses you can use to get easy kills in death match. The bio is "well balanced" to targets that can move. So IMO some nerfing to bio is OK, but not too much. Because I still think that bio camp is part of Freon. Maybe 25% is still abit too much, if I am correct, it is 52 hp so it is 36% of full thaw. I would but it to 17% so it is 25% of 145 hp, full thaw. So four full bio would be a full thaw. But this is smth probably that must be tested.
Quote from: nyrde on March 23, 2023, 15:28
I think almoust all weapons are OP depending on the situation. Full rox in tight corners, shock combo on medium range, lg hs (but lg hs is really rare I have a good aim and I usually only get smth like 3 hs per mach). But I think the difference is that they still work as intented and the bio is hugely different in Freon than in other game types. There are no static corpses you can use to get easy kills in death match. The bio is "well balanced" to targets that can move. So IMO some nerfing to bio is OK, but not too much. Because I still think that bio camp is part of Freon. Maybe 25% is still abit too much, if I am correct, it is 52 hp so it is 36% of full thaw. I would but it to 17% so it is 25% of 145 hp, full thaw. So four full bio would be a full thaw. But this is smth probably that must be tested.
I think frozen thaw health is calculated as 1HP = 1%
The idea to thaw people with bio is good, until people who are big natural [censored] abuse it to thaw enemies...so they can...
1. ruin their own game?
2. ruin others' game?
3. ruin everyone's game?
4. love playing the victim when you argue/kick/force-spec them?
5. all of the above?
Maybe we should add some very useful counters in the game.
1. Time spent afk per game while alive, double if typing.
2. Deaths while in afk mode per game
3. Enemy thaws using bio/lava per game
4. Number of times they switched to spec/left the game and back to game in under 60seconds
Then put the high scorers alone in a room with kops.
Quote from: nyrde on March 23, 2023, 15:28
I think almoust all weapons are OP depending on the situation. Full rox in tight corners, shock combo on medium range, lg hs (but lg hs is really rare I have a good aim and I usually only get smth like 3 hs per mach). But I think the difference is that they still work as intented and the bio is hugely different in Freon than in other game types. There are no static corpses you can use to get easy kills in death match. The bio is "well balanced" to targets that can move. So IMO some nerfing to bio is OK, but not too much. Because I still think that bio camp is part of Freon. Maybe 25% is still abit too much, if I am correct, it is 52 hp so it is 36% of full thaw. I would but it to 17% so it is 25% of 145 hp, full thaw. So four full bio would be a full thaw. But this is smth probably that must be tested.
Okei maybe I was bit of... 3 Hs in a map if I am lucky, but not every map. And sometimes I cant hit anything anyways... but the point being that they are rare so even better :D
Piglet! Zeus is teasing me on the server!!
...Not really... and apparently you can't delete messages :D
I go to sleep now...
But by the way it would be cool if one after match stats would show headshots. THEN I WOULD SHOW ALL OF YOU... SHOW YOU GOOD!!! Muahahahahahaha!!!
Quote from: Jozz on March 23, 2023, 15:24
Is it intentional that the bio thaw doesn't complete if the last player standing dies in the bio hit? The corpse shows 100% health but doesn't respawn.
It would for instance if a corpse was pushed into lava, even after the last player dies..
I thought that might happen. The check for the is done in a different place to the damage... I'll have a think
Don't make it like Lava .. that will just make it worse.
Lava maps are the kind of maps which I don't like so much because there is always one on my team, and not on the enemy one, who push players in it after game end .. so the game doesn't end. And in 4 of 5 the other team will win than -> RQ
..
You need 11 single bio for a full 100% from 0 thaw .. like I worte there: https://miasma.rocks/index.php/topic,1869.msg24267.html#msg24267
Quote from: Miauz55555 on March 24, 2023, 15:56
You need 11 single bio for a full 100% from 0 thaw .. like I worte there: https://miasma.rocks/index.php/topic,1869.msg24267.html#msg24267
You deliberately being a twat on the server doing that is not a good reason for changing the functionality. it is, however, a pretty compeling reason to kick you....as I did.
Quote from: Piglet on March 24, 2023, 18:20
Quote from: Miauz55555 on March 24, 2023, 15:56
You need 11 single bio for a full 100% from 0 thaw .. like I worte there: https://miasma.rocks/index.php/topic,1869.msg24267.html#msg24267
You deliberately being a twat on the server doing that is not a good reason for changing the functionality. it is, however, a pretty compeling reason to kick you....as I did.
Let's say I deserved that kick.
But calling me a "twat" is a bit rude, or do I misunderstand your post? Within the game, I can understand that callings and don't care. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/de/worterbuch/englisch/twat
Here the sittuation: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1774450589
Here is the full game:
https://www.twitch.tv/miauz55555/video/1774269986
Quote from: Krellsan on March 15, 2023, 13:35
Jeez. Maybe you shouldn't fix something that isn't broken? And maybe for example create a vote on these parameters? Apparently just leaving everything "as it be" is not an option.
Why not just divide the servers into kindergarten and professionals-tryharders. Something alike - u shall not pass if ur ppr lower than 10! 8! above! lower! Add some mightiest bots there for creating a crowd if there not many ppl online. And then we will see which server have more online and on which one situation is healthier and friendlier. Not everyone here wants to be a grand achiever or instantly do it in a competition mode. Jeez, dudes. With these settings U literally pull out, throwing overboard specifically me, and some other people, who just can't reach your skill. My complaints on this freon is just only about "suicidal label", which you can get with hitting ur frozen teammate. That bug is really awful. Everything else - just about human behavior and "achiever pro" issues.
This sums up very well my view on the current changes and the overall ambiance on the server ; I feel the new settings are causing more problems than it solves :
-Modifying the PPR calculation and basing it on fewer games creates aberrant values and unbalanced teams ; this happened a few times with good players having abnormally low ppr (yesterday laka went from 4.5 ppr to 15 which resulted in a 0-10 game). And there was also cases of players having inflated ppr. It also punishes consistency because you'll systematically end up in a team with lower pprs
-Respawning with lesser HP is surreptitiously nerfing the players with aggressive playstyle (but I guess that's my problem).
-My overall impression on balance is that the current settings creates teams with either very high or low invididual scores, before it ends up pairing the two top-scoring players from opposite team together.
-I havent noticed any difference regarding the biocamping.
-About the ambiance on the serv : some people seem to struggle to accept the fact that not everyone wants to play competitively, it is after all a FFA server and one should try not force his views of the game onto others but rather accept the variety of motives which make ppl play this game (ie just having fun). Instead, I'm feeling that the difficulty to deal with the frustration of loosing often results in an unload of anger onto a few space goats, which is saddening to witness.
My impression is that these changes of settings are a result of blaming and subsequently trying to control external factors (other players or settings) which are wrongly judged as the reason of the problem.
Quote from: Dawkins on March 25, 2023, 11:36
This sums up very well my view on the current changes and the overall ambiance on the server ; I feel the new settings are causing more problems than it solves :
-Modifying the PPR calculation and basing it on fewer games creates aberrant values and unbalanced teams ; this happened a few times with good players having abnormally low ppr (yesterday laka went from 4.5 ppr to 15 which resulted in a 0-10 game). And there was also cases of players having inflated ppr. It also punishes consistency because you'll systematically end up in a team with lower pprs
There was no change in actual PPR calculation, the stats were reset they are re-collected from 0 after the changes.
Some of the higher skilled players would reset their stats frequently and create the same issue anyway.
Quote from: Dawkins on March 25, 2023, 11:36
-My overall impression on balance is that the current settings creates teams with either very high or low invididual scores, before it ends up pairing the two top-scoring players from opposite team together.
This happens because people join without stats, they get a temporary 4.5, when they have no match history, same issue as above.
Quote from: Dawkins on March 25, 2023, 11:36
-Respawning with lesser HP is surreptitiously nerfing the players with aggressive playstyle (but I guess that's my problem).
- Default 3spn logic was to get the thawer's HP or the average team HP
Full health thaws - 100/100 were caused due to a mutator bug, it wasn't supposed to work this way.
Challenge mode was reducing
starting HP down to 155. (including thawed HP)
-5HP for every win scored by your team
-5HP for every extra win scored compared to the enemy team.
That resulted mostly in balanced teams but when the scores were not even, for example 9-6 the team that's ahead starts with 140HP.
You now start with 100/100 and get reduced HP on thaws.
But the balancer would balance teams according to PPR, so you ended up with balanced skill in teams but not equal chances to win. (in fact it was always a landslide)
It was put on hold due to 145HP working better with the "cuddles" mutator - you can heal to 145HP from teammates you thawed.
I am playing much more aggressively than you do and I only have issues when i'm not thawing, there's a very slight difference due to lower HP after thaws, but you can heal it back faster and higher now.
Provides a good incentive to thaw,
it's Freon after all.I sent to Piglet some code to adjust the 3spn thaw logic.
Instead of just HP, thaw with a min amount of HP+Shield(50/50 for example) + a percentage of thawer's HP on top, so if the thawer has 100HP, the thawed player gets another 25HP+25S, for a total of 150. (adjustable)
Challenge mode would work better for 2v2 up to 5v5, where there's a high skilled player but not enough players to counterbalance.
It still takes away HP from players who are not as skilled as you are Dawk...and those players are hurt much more from starting the game with lowered HP.
Quote from: Dawkins on March 25, 2023, 11:36
-I havent noticed any difference regarding the biocamping.
-About the ambiance on the serv : some people seem to struggle to accept the fact that not everyone wants to play competitively, it is after all a FFA server and one should try not force his views of the game onto others but rather accept the variety of motives which make ppl play this game (ie just having fun). Instead, I'm feeling that the difficulty to deal with the frustration of loosing often results in an unload of anger onto a few space goats, which is saddening to witness.
My impression is that these changes of settings are a result of blaming and subsequently trying to control external factors (other players or settings) which are wrongly judged as the reason of the problem.
I think the whole bio-thaw thing is getting too complex for an arena shooter and it seems to me that people abuse it/accidentally thaw.
Best if we just bring back the thaw protect, so people stop biocamping.
Regarding the other point, tell me how these points below are wrongly judged as a reason of a problem
1. Spending 90% of your time alive ingame chatting (getting killed while typing every round) -> moved to spec -> rejoin -> continue chat
-> Not playing the game
2. Thawing enemies while the round is still not over and essentially playing for the enemy team
-> Playing the game but intentionally against your team
3. Have balanced teams, then going spec, waiting for the balancer then joining a different team
-> Playing the game, but intentionally against a balanced game
4. Joining from spec in order to kill the bot which is the last alive and thawing, then spending your time AFK -> back to point 1
-> Not playing the game, intentionally abusing the way the game works.
5. Having a history of being toxic to multiple players, then trying to twist everything into "it's just a game" and "just a joke"
-> Playing the game, but verbally abusing the players.
6. Join the game with your stats intentionally reset,you gain an unfair advantage, which snowballs into a team advantage.
-> Playing the game, abusing the way it works, "didn't know" is not an excuse for high-skilled players
The actual problem is giving a second (or 100th) chance, to the 6 categories above.
Quote from: holyspam on March 25, 2023, 14:16
There was no change in actual PPR calculation, the stats were reset they are re-collected from 0 after the changes.
Some of the higher skilled players would reset their stats frequently and create the same issue anyway.
This happens because people join without stats, they get a temporary 4.5, when they have no match history, same issue as above.
My bad about the PPR calculation, I thought it was modified but was obv wrong.
Quote from: holyspam on March 25, 2023, 14:16
Challenge mode would work better for 2v2 up to 5v5, where there's a high skilled player but not enough players to counterbalance.
Im still not convinced that removing CM and modifying the HP on respawn has solved the balancing issue (
if there ever was one), but my view could be biased since its solely based on impressions, so lets see what comes out of an obective analysis of the datas..
Quote from: holyspam on March 25, 2023, 14:16
Quote from: Dawkins on March 25, 2023, 11:36
-My overall impression on balance is that the current settings creates teams with either very high or low invididual scores, before it ends up pairing the two top-scoring players from opposite team together.
This happens because people join without stats, they get a temporary 4.5, when they have no match history, same issue as above.
I guess this issue would be solved once PPR datas get collected for everyone, again lets see how it turns out in the future.
Quote from: holyspam on March 25, 2023, 14:16
Regarding the other point, tell me how these points below are wrongly judged as a reason of a problem
1. Spending 90% of your time alive ingame chatting (getting killed while typing every round) -> moved to spec -> rejoin -> continue chat
-> Not playing the game
2. Thawing enemies while the round is still not over and essentially playing for the enemy team
-> Playing the game but intentionally against your team
3. Have balanced teams, then going spec, waiting for the balancer then joining a different team
-> Playing the game, but intentionally against a balanced game
4. Joining from spec in order to kill the bot which is the last alive and thawing, then spending your time AFK -> back to point 1
-> Not playing the game, intentionally abusing the way the game works.
5. Having a history of being toxic to multiple players, then trying to twist everything into "it's just a game" and "just a joke"
-> Playing the game, but verbally abusing the players.
6. Join the game with your stats intentionally reset,you gain an unfair advantage, which snowballs into a team advantage.
-> Playing the game, abusing the way it works, "didn't know" is not an excuse for high-skilled players
The actual problem is giving a second (or 100th) chance, to the 6 categories above.
1.I think thats a bit of an overestimation regarding how much some people speak on the serv. I'm repeating myself but it is after all a FFA server and some people might join the serv for the fun rather than the competition.
2. I dont think the
intention of players pushing enemies into lava is to play against their own team but rather to get easy points.
3-4. Again i dont think their
intention is to mess up the game, these phenomenons rather seem like the everyday tribulations of a FFA server, and are overall rare.
5. About the verbal abuse, I completely agree with the fact that it has to go, however I feel that it sometimes comes from people who are in a position of power and wont get called out or punished for it.
6.I dont think I ever witnessed this, but it does indeed sounds like an abuse of the way it works.
That being said, I dont see how changing the server's settings will modify any the "problematic" behaviour listed above ; hence why I viewed these changes as an attempt to control extrenal factors that are actually not a problem (ie balance, hp, etc..)
If I'm being an ass, just tell me! I do get annoyed when on a team of players that seem to be playing onlyTAM
If you are planning on changes / improvements to PIG3SPN then my proposed improvement is that admins CANNOT add slots and _HAVE TO_ wait in the spec like everyone else. I cba to play another game of 22 / 24 / 2304923904923094 slot campground / goose / trast / some other map because someone "feels" like it could provide "fun value"
There is NOT a single scenario in freon where 18+ slots would provide value to freon as a gametype. It does however provide negative emotions to people playing because it reduces the actual skill needed and it ends up being a random luckshot based spamming instead of actual freon. And after a few maps the server will be empty ...
QuoteThe actual problem is giving a second (or 100th) chance, to the 6 categories above
And who are the judges?© lol. We banned hamish and mleko, and peronally i still not agree with that. Btw, BJ is banned for inappropriate name, or he just left like Rocktan, Bahia and many others?
I completely trust Dave here, but everyone else seems too much involved in their "tryhard achiever pro" issues. Didn't see him a while thou. Miss him ALOT.
Quote5. Having a history of being toxic to multiple players, then trying to twist everything into "it's just a game" and "just a joke"
-> Playing the game, but verbally abusing the players.
That seems on me, when i used "kurwa" word and you kicked me. Just let it go, dude, i thought we figured that out.
and PigQuoteIf I'm being an ass, just tell me! I do get annoyed when on a team of players that seem to be playing onlyTAM
Pig! You not an ass at all! You just get too involved in the game and want to win for yourself and your team so passionately that it becomes a challenge even to play with you on the same team. From my point of view, this is the reason why most ppl has blame on you. You demand from people more intelligence, more skill, more tactics than they can physically gave to you.
Dudes. All of you. Constant improvement did not meant evolvingYou totally forgot about idea, heart and soul that Raj meant here, when he kept this server DemoOnly. Same reason that Krem did not improved Core server.
Total improvement meant that you need to go in higher leagueYou have added a numerous of maps, but only the most popular ones are played. You keep the assault mode, but left it abandoned because you are not interested in it. But remember how fun it was when we asked Nigel (where is he btw?) to change the map to a convoy after two or three onslaughts? And how huge was the online among the players all the time, and not just in the evenings?
I am aware that I am a big pain in the ass for many here and my words will simply not be accepted. But.
There will always be dissatisfied people.
Just think what you want. Maintain the atmosphere and population of the servers, or strive for achievement and sort the best.
"Pig! You not an ass at all! You just get too involved in the game and want to win for yourself and your team so passionately that it becomes a challenge even to play with you on the same team. From my point of view, this is the reason why most ppl has blame on you. You demand from people more intelligence, more skill, more tactics than they can physically gave to you."
For my part, I notice that the game is much more fun when Pig is around - the thaw ratio goes way up from all players on both teams, teamplay improves, manners improve, and I don't spend 3/4 of the game frozen! Although there are several players who regularly improve the mood of the game (Thor, Daw, Hag, Kops, HS, and many more), Pig is MVP in a freon match!
Long live the Pig, and happy birthday!
I'm not a fan of more than 18 slots most of the time (16 is plenty) the odd game it's ok
but too often is not fun game
sure you can have fun on high player count server but turn off reflect friendly fire as it's too crowded to hit the enemy players
most played maps are good for 16 and when player could is set at 20 and it's early people join toward end of game and mess up teams
Lol, my warm up game is usually DM with 30+ bots on Rankin, when I can remember to do a warm up without diving into an open server slot!
Wow, big thread I've missed...
I used to get swapped around a lot during matches, but I've got the 3spn setup so my enemy is always green, so not an issue.
Good feedback in thread, lots of different perspectives, we won't all agree on anything, but with some testing I'm sure it will be sound :)
I'm the same in game as in life, don't take anything seriously and laugh as much as possible + others O:-)
Quote from: zeus on March 25, 2023, 22:10
If you are planning on changes / improvements to PIG3SPN then my proposed improvement is that admins CANNOT add slots and _HAVE TO_ wait in the spec like everyone else.
Well...we could auto kick a random player when joining like we used to on Titan but I fear that may cause an angry thread all of its own!
To be honest, one of the main reasons for me not really playing Freon anymore is the player count, never been a big fan of 12+ player matches, at that point I'd rather just hop in one of the other servers and get some games going, it's proven difficult in the past however with so many Player slots/spec slots on the main server to encourage people over to the other servers.
Only other things I could live without is full health thaws and the resurrection combo, this can really make the rounds drag on, it's Freon, cuddle your friends :)
Oh, and bots, I'd limit them to just a single bot for the first person who joins the server to shoot while waiting for people to join, anything beyond that and they just get in the way for the most part.
Other than the things that have already been mentioned there isn't much else I'd change.
We're sticking closer to 16 players at the moment.
For goose and contrast it's sometimes higher!
Just a few small updates today.
Goop directly on frozen enemy players will result in a red rather than a green splash.
Various code tidies and accessed-none fixes bloating logs - e.g. don't try and count accuracy for bots on stats that don't exist...
Quote from: Piglet on March 31, 2023, 11:17
Various code tidies and accessed-none fixes bloating logs - e.g. don't try and count accuracy for bots on stats that don't exist...
Sometimes there is a clear solution to all problems :D
People were asking me to look at the Necrocombo priority, so I looked at the existing code and I don't think it's working at all as intended by the original author.
Simplified (as the current code has my addition to prefer non-being thawed playert)
ThawingBestRezTime = 100000
for(C = Level.ControllerList; C != None; C = C.NextController)
{
if(Misc_Player(C)!=None){
if(Misc_Player(C).LastRezTime<BestRezTime)
MyControllerList.Length = 0;
BestRezTime = Misc_Player(C).LastRezTime;
}
i = MyControllerList.Length;
MyControllerList.Length = i+1;
MyControllerList[i] = C;
}
return MyControllerList[Rand(MyControllerList.Length)];
That will reset the list of players to choose from each time one with an older last res time is found.
Ok. First time through the player1 was last res'd at time 400. The 400 is "best" time. Array resets and they are added as the only player in the array
Next time through the player2 was last res'd at time 300. The 300 is "best" time. Array resets and they are added as the only player in the array
Next time through the player3 was last res'd at time 620. The array does not reset but the player is added to the list along with player 2
Next time through the player4 was last res'd at time 300. 300 is still the best so the array does not reset but the player is added to the list along with player 2 and 3
Next time through the player4 was last res'd at time 920. The array does not reset but the player is added to the list along with player 2, 3 and 4
The code then chooses a random player 2, 3, 4, or 5 when the intention is to find player 2 and player 4 and choose randomly between them
I've added some new code to be a bit more sensible in which player is chosen:
Thawing priority, soon to be put on the server for a test
1. longest ago res'd dead players who've not left the game and rejoined
2. longest ago res'd frozen players (or rejoined players) not being actively thawed
3. players actively being thawed at the time necro used, longest ago res'd
4. dead bot (random)
5. frozen bot (random)
6. bot actively being thawed at the time necro used (random)
I've left the old code in (configurable at server side) and also left in lots of debug (configuable on/off at server side).
Biothawing bad.
Four legs good.
Even thou it was my idea, I think that bio thawing is bad idea. After playing with it... I don't think it fits too well. And I think that being able to use bio to thawers is essential for freon. I agree with dawk that not everything needs to be balanced like it is competitive esporst or smth. Part of the fun of freon are the quarks like bio camping. And I just have learned the habit of checking corners before thaw and it's fine. I think that bio works well to balance thawing... it makes it kinda strategic... its not always wise to thaw if you suspect bio camping and so.
Removing the challenger mode I like.
About the health... I don't know... 145 health and 200 health after thaw are both fine for me. TBH I haven't noticed that big of a difference in anything on that regard.
Just to point out that the score is not everything. Sometimes you loose 5-10 and the match is still can be good if the rounds are even and the other team doesn't get stomped.
The new necro code seems to be working fine. The use of arrays in that section of the code is probably not required...but it works.
Quote from: nyrde on April 05, 2023, 19:02
Even thou it was my idea, I think that bio thawing is bad idea. After playing with it... I don't think it fits too well.
Let's try it with a bit lower percentage. People hated RFF, but it stopped too much spamming into groups. This is similar.
Make it 4% -> would be ~8,4% thaw with a full load That would be acceptable.
It was 50%. Moved to 30%, and now at 15%. You shouldn't fling your goop at frozen players in the same way as you shouldn't do it on teammates...
Ok. The smaller % is a good idea. IMO If we have the the bio thaw, it should be so that it doesn't discourage the use of bio to thawers, but nerfs the bio camping aka spamming bio to same corpses over and over again.
I will try to not use bio on thawers, but simply headshot them. You can HS someone with a shield. Just need to increase my aim a bit, or let's say where to hit .. the hs seems a litle bit random sometimes.
Some food for thought
Elements affecting the gaming experience can be broadly separated into the following
1. 3SPN codebase running server side
2. Settings in the server (read: player count, tickrate, various network settings, server OS)
3. Internet routing & its quality
4. Client side computer & its settings (read: how new is the player's computer, whether the network is over wifi, etc)
5. 3SPN codebase running client side
At any point in time the gaming experience for the player is a player specific combination of all these elements.
Unfortunately the recent gaming experience ( > 1 week ) has been horrible for many players!
The server becomes a random lagfest when more than 2 players are actively playing on it. "Random lagfest" here implicating 2 main characteristics
* movement is lagged / shooting is delayed / feeling of "delayness" in gameplay
* hitting is inconsistent (= same shot does not hit the same way in the span of seconds) and receiving damage feels total random (= one does get hit before the client can draw the projectiles that caused the hit)
Good example - at the moment of writing it is 22 CET in Europe and there are 3 players trying to have fun. Server was full (18 players) 1h ago and most people did not go to sleep, they just _CHOSE_ not to play in a random lagfest! This random lagfest has resulted in games where 7.x PPR is on top with 18 players in server and players having 10+ thaw units. This has also resulted in Pig ragequitting because he doesn't get any thaws!
So far holy has said the element #3 (internet routing & its quality) is at fault mostly, but if we look into broader picture it could be also any of #1, #2, #5 at fault OR any subset of those. The only thing more or less constant in this whole array of elements is #4 as players do not switch / upgrade computers on daily basis
So my question is - WHY DO YOU KEEP ON CHANGING SO MANY VARIABLES 24/7 AND EXPECT A DIFFERENT RESULT EACH TIME? This is like the perfect counter example of a scientific experiment -> one changes so many input variables at the same time that is almost impossible to narrow down the exact cause of negative results. One has basically 0 control over how it will influence the player experience. So what if you STOP upgrading / updating all the settings / codebase at once (again randomly choosing the sub-elements to change, like BIO based thawing) or at all (PIG3SPN & server settings from 2 years ago were quite OK) and stick to running the best Freon experience instead?
And then perhaps Pig shall also get his thaws in maps other than trast & Goose
Nice diatribe, however I suspect you're missing the root cause entirely.
All the code is in the package. You'll have various copies of the package in your cache directory. You can extract (ucc batchexport) and compare them.
What you'll see is that none of the recent changes are anywhere that could have any effect on "movement is lagged", "shooting is delayed", or "hitting is inconsistent".
Please have a look.
Quote from: Piglet on April 06, 2023, 11:38
It was 50%. Moved to 30%, and now at 15%. You shouldn't fling your goop at frozen players in the same way as you shouldn't do it on teammates...
I realise pro's don't like bio but you've managed to render any bio tactics or use out of the game - effectively I see no one using it now - or only at least by accident? If the whole purpose of UT was only to use Shock and LG then you can call it some other game (C.O.D?) What makes UT is the variety and weps such as flak and bio even it up a bit for those that are crap like me.
I'm not sure I agree. What was the skill in insta-killing players with bio as they thawed with no adverse consequences? Where was the fun in having it done to you? Where was the gameplay advantage of leaving this like it was?
The only change is that you have to be a bit careful otherwise other players grouped with the one you insta-kill might thaw a bit faster (15% of the damage is converted to health). If you don't want it, don't group them. You can always move them apart. There are benefits in that....
People said the same sort of thing about RFF (reverse friendly fire) where if you spam into teammates you get some damage. It's effectively the same thing.
updated the first post
Quote from: Piglet on April 30, 2023, 21:57
I'm not sure I agree. What was the skill in insta-killing players with bio as they thawed with no adverse consequences? Where was the fun in having it done to you? Where was the gameplay advantage of leaving this like it was?
The only change is that you have to be a bit careful otherwise other players grouped with the one you insta-kill might thaw a bit faster (15% of the damage is converted to health). If you don't want it, don't group them. You can always move them apart. There are benefits in that....
People said the same sort of thing about RFF (reverse friendly fire) where if you spam into teammates you get some damage. It's effectively the same thing.
I thought there was a 3 second shield when thawed if not next to a frozen team-mate? I totally agree with that bio camping is annoying, but then if you fire some rox spam from a long way off into frozen enemies, isn't that kind of the same thing? It probably won't kill you though, unless you are on low health.
Aye not a major bonus but a boost :) I'm not sure how I've not noticed this before :))
Haha, the RFF; makes it more tactical and the user has to be more precise 8)
Aye, changes are cool, not sure I've fully registered them yet. At least ya got the bug for killing frozen players sorted - that was mad!
Props to MiA community 8)
Time to remove the bio-thawing, doesn't do anything.
Add a message about loss of spawn protection
Instead cancel bio damage on frozen, fixes the issue instantly and NO side effects
This removes any incentive to camp frozen.
Not allowing any unfair damage which results into adrenaline, score and kills which results into more adrenaline and even higher score
Adrenaline leads to quicker resurrecting and even higher score
In the meantime, all you did was wait until someone thaws with a fully charged bio and not even aim at the player alive
alternatives:
Grouped players lose invul, but thaw maybe 5 or 10% faster for each player nearby, capped at 30 or 40%
I have to say I quite like the current arrangement.
Splash on grouped frozen helps thaw them, which is a help to them and a reason not to goop.
You can camp them, but that takes you away from kill/thawing, and you run the risk of helping them.
Their own team can goop them and cause splash damage on the camper.
I'm not quite following the alternative. Are you saying to remove all damage (including splash) when hitting a frozen player? How does this help? The camper can still camp until they thaw, and then splat them.
Frozen bodies should not be processing damage/splash damage
People are not shooting at the person thawed, but on the frozen body and the thawed gets all the damage, with no way to react to this.
It just inflates scores of bio-campers and at the same time does not promote team play.
The original way it worked was always invul, even in groups.
The suggestion was to remove invul when too many people are together, so you won't thaw your whole team.
The solution to remove the invul, lead to the biocamp because some players did it once or twice successfully.
We created the camping problem.
And then bio thawing was introduced as a "solution"? Now people can control how fast the frozen thaw and kill the thawed ones
It is not intuitive and does not make sense, you introduce a second problem, instead of fixing the first.
Frozen = thawed by heat, example lava, so why not thaw with rockets, grenades and LG?
Also, the reason Bio is preferred, to let's say 3rox is because rockets have a smaller splash radius and they process on where they hit.
It does not re-process the damage for every player, Bio causes damage in a huge radius(i think 200-400units), then each player around gets a percentage of the full damage,
Well done, you got 200-300dmg with one fully charged shot on a frozen, you are truly amazing
In the meantime, you need 2 full flaks or 5 shock hits on real players for the same damage.
The first issue, is fixable by just stopping frozen pawns processing the damage
Then the camper can only hit the player who thawed
If you want to keep the damage, then maybe Bio can stick and splash around the frozen instead of explode on touch.
If we want a dynamic thaw system, we can make each frozen pawn add 5-10% speed to the thaw rate.
Interesting.