Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)  (Read 70039 times)

Miauz55555

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2023, 20:01 »
You need 11 single bio for a full 100% from 0 thaw .. like I worte there: https://miasma.rocks/index.php/topic,1869.msg24267.html#msg24267

You deliberately being a twat on the server doing that is not a good reason for changing the functionality. it is, however, a pretty compeling reason to kick you....as I did.
Let's say I deserved that kick.
But calling me a "twat" is a bit rude, or do I misunderstand your post? Within the game, I can understand that callings and don't care. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/de/worterbuch/englisch/twat
Here the sittuation: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1774450589
Here is the full game:
https://www.twitch.tv/miauz55555/video/1774269986

Dawkins

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2023, 11:36 »
Jeez. Maybe you shouldn't fix something that isn't broken? And maybe for example create a vote on these parameters? Apparently just leaving everything "as it be" is not an option.
Why not just divide the servers into kindergarten and professionals-tryharders. Something alike - u shall not pass if ur ppr lower than 10! 8! above! lower! Add some mightiest bots there for creating a crowd if there not many ppl online. And then we will see which server have more online and on which one situation is healthier and friendlier. Not everyone here wants to be a grand achiever or instantly do it in a competition mode. Jeez, dudes. With these settings U literally pull out, throwing overboard specifically me, and some other people, who just can't reach your skill. My complaints on this freon is just only about "suicidal label", which you can get with hitting ur frozen teammate. That bug is really awful. Everything else - just about human behavior and "achiever pro" issues.

This sums up very well my view on the current changes and the overall ambiance on the server ; I feel the new settings are causing more problems than it solves :
-Modifying the PPR calculation and basing it on fewer games creates aberrant values and unbalanced teams ; this happened a few times with good players having abnormally low ppr (yesterday laka went from 4.5 ppr to 15 which resulted in a 0-10 game). And there was also cases of players having inflated ppr. It also punishes consistency because you'll systematically end up in a team with lower pprs
-Respawning with lesser HP is surreptitiously nerfing the players with aggressive playstyle (but I guess that's my problem).
-My overall impression on balance is that the current settings creates teams with either very high or low invididual scores, before it ends up pairing the two top-scoring players from opposite team together.
-I havent noticed any difference regarding the biocamping.
-About the ambiance on the serv : some people seem to struggle to accept the fact that not everyone wants to play competitively, it is after all a FFA server and one should try not force his views of the game onto others but rather accept the variety of motives which make ppl play this game (ie just having fun). Instead, I'm feeling that the difficulty to deal with the frustration of loosing often results in an unload of anger onto a few space goats, which is saddening to witness.
My impression is that these changes of settings are a result of blaming and subsequently trying to control external factors (other players or settings) which are wrongly judged as the reason of the problem.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2023, 12:34 by Dawkins »

holyspam

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2023, 14:16 »
This sums up very well my view on the current changes and the overall ambiance on the server ; I feel the new settings are causing more problems than it solves :
-Modifying the PPR calculation and basing it on fewer games creates aberrant values and unbalanced teams ; this happened a few times with good players having abnormally low ppr (yesterday laka went from 4.5 ppr to 15 which resulted in a 0-10 game). And there was also cases of players having inflated ppr. It also punishes consistency because you'll systematically end up in a team with lower pprs
There was no change in actual PPR calculation, the stats were reset  they are re-collected from 0 after the changes.
Some of the higher skilled players would reset their stats frequently and create the same issue anyway.

-My overall impression on balance is that the current settings creates teams with either very high or low invididual scores, before it ends up pairing the two top-scoring players from opposite team together.
This happens because people join without stats, they get a temporary 4.5, when they have no match history, same issue as above.


-Respawning with lesser HP is surreptitiously nerfing the players with aggressive playstyle (but I guess that's my problem).
- Default 3spn logic was to get the thawer's HP or the average team HP
Full health thaws - 100/100 were caused due to a mutator bug, it wasn't supposed to work this way.

Challenge mode was reducing starting HP down to 155. (including thawed HP)
-5HP for every win scored by your team
-5HP for every extra win scored compared to the enemy team.

That resulted mostly in balanced teams but when the scores were not even, for example 9-6 the team that's ahead starts with 140HP.
You now start with 100/100 and get reduced HP on thaws.
But the balancer would balance teams according to PPR, so you ended up with balanced skill in teams but not equal chances to win. (in fact it was always a landslide)


It was put on hold due to 145HP working better with the "cuddles" mutator - you can heal to 145HP from teammates you thawed.
I am playing much more aggressively than you do and I only have issues when i'm not thawing, there's a very slight difference due to lower HP after thaws, but you can heal it back faster and higher now.

Provides a good incentive to thaw, it's Freon after all.

I sent to Piglet some code to adjust the 3spn thaw logic.
Instead of just HP, thaw with a min amount of HP+Shield(50/50 for example) + a percentage of thawer's HP on top, so if the thawer has 100HP, the thawed player gets another 25HP+25S, for a total of 150. (adjustable)

Challenge mode would work better for 2v2 up to 5v5, where there's a high skilled player but not enough players to counterbalance.
It still takes away HP from players who are not as skilled as you are Dawk...and those players are hurt much more from starting the game with lowered HP.










-I havent noticed any difference regarding the biocamping.
-About the ambiance on the serv : some people seem to struggle to accept the fact that not everyone wants to play competitively, it is after all a FFA server and one should try not force his views of the game onto others but rather accept the variety of motives which make ppl play this game (ie just having fun). Instead, I'm feeling that the difficulty to deal with the frustration of loosing often results in an unload of anger onto a few space goats, which is saddening to witness.
My impression is that these changes of settings are a result of blaming and subsequently trying to control external factors (other players or settings) which are wrongly judged as the reason of the problem.
I think the whole bio-thaw thing is getting too complex for an arena shooter and it seems to me that people abuse it/accidentally thaw.
Best if we just bring back the thaw protect, so people stop biocamping.

Regarding the other point, tell me how these points below are wrongly judged as a reason of a problem
1. Spending 90% of your time alive ingame chatting (getting killed while typing every round) -> moved to spec -> rejoin -> continue chat
-> Not playing the game

2. Thawing enemies while the round is still not over and essentially playing for the enemy team
-> Playing the game but intentionally against your team

3. Have balanced teams, then going spec, waiting for the balancer then joining a different team
-> Playing the game, but intentionally against a balanced game

4. Joining from spec in order to kill the bot which is the last alive and thawing, then spending your time AFK -> back to point 1
-> Not playing the game, intentionally abusing the way the game works.

5. Having a history of being toxic to multiple players, then trying to twist everything into "it's just a game" and "just a joke"
-> Playing the game, but verbally abusing the players.

6. Join the game with your stats intentionally reset,you gain an unfair advantage, which snowballs into a team advantage.
-> Playing the game, abusing the way it works, "didn't know" is not an excuse for high-skilled players

The actual problem is giving a second (or 100th) chance, to the 6 categories above.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2023, 15:29 by holyspam »

Dawkins

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2023, 18:23 »
There was no change in actual PPR calculation, the stats were reset  they are re-collected from 0 after the changes.
Some of the higher skilled players would reset their stats frequently and create the same issue anyway.
This happens because people join without stats, they get a temporary 4.5, when they have no match history, same issue as above.
My bad about the PPR calculation, I thought it was modified but was obv wrong.
Challenge mode would work better for 2v2 up to 5v5, where there's a high skilled player but not enough players to counterbalance.
Im still not convinced that removing CM and modifying the HP on respawn has solved the balancing issue (if there ever was one), but my view could be biased since its solely based on impressions, so lets see what comes out of an obective analysis of the datas..
-My overall impression on balance is that the current settings creates teams with either very high or low invididual scores, before it ends up pairing the two top-scoring players from opposite team together.
This happens because people join without stats, they get a temporary 4.5, when they have no match history, same issue as above.
I guess this issue would be solved once PPR datas get collected for everyone, again lets see how it turns out in the future.


Regarding the other point, tell me how these points below are wrongly judged as a reason of a problem
1. Spending 90% of your time alive ingame chatting (getting killed while typing every round) -> moved to spec -> rejoin -> continue chat
-> Not playing the game

2. Thawing enemies while the round is still not over and essentially playing for the enemy team
-> Playing the game but intentionally against your team

3. Have balanced teams, then going spec, waiting for the balancer then joining a different team
-> Playing the game, but intentionally against a balanced game

4. Joining from spec in order to kill the bot which is the last alive and thawing, then spending your time AFK -> back to point 1
-> Not playing the game, intentionally abusing the way the game works.

5. Having a history of being toxic to multiple players, then trying to twist everything into "it's just a game" and "just a joke"
-> Playing the game, but verbally abusing the players.

6. Join the game with your stats intentionally reset,you gain an unfair advantage, which snowballs into a team advantage.
-> Playing the game, abusing the way it works, "didn't know" is not an excuse for high-skilled players

The actual problem is giving a second (or 100th) chance, to the 6 categories above.
1.I think thats a bit of an overestimation regarding how much some people speak on the serv. I'm repeating myself but it is after all a FFA server and some people might join the serv for the fun rather than the competition.
2. I dont think the intention of players pushing enemies into lava is to play against their own team but rather to get easy points.
3-4. Again i dont think their intention is to mess up the game, these phenomenons rather seem like the everyday tribulations of a FFA server, and are overall rare.
5. About the verbal abuse, I completely agree with the fact that it has to go, however I feel that it sometimes comes from people who are in a position of power and wont get called out or punished for it.
6.I dont think I ever witnessed this, but it does indeed sounds like an abuse of the way it works.

That being said, I dont see how changing the server's settings will modify any the "problematic" behaviour listed above ; hence why I viewed these changes as an attempt to control extrenal factors that are actually not a problem (ie balance, hp, etc..)









« Last Edit: March 25, 2023, 18:25 by Dawkins »

Piglet

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2023, 20:57 »
If I'm being an ass, just tell me! I do get annoyed when on a team of players that seem to be playing onlyTAM

zeus

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2023, 22:10 »
If you are planning on changes / improvements to PIG3SPN then my proposed improvement is that admins CANNOT add slots and _HAVE TO_ wait in the spec like everyone else. I cba to play another game of 22 / 24 / 2304923904923094  slot campground / goose / trast / some other map because someone "feels" like it could provide "fun value"

There is NOT a single scenario in freon where 18+ slots would provide value to freon as a gametype. It does however provide negative emotions to people playing because it reduces the actual skill needed and it ends up being a random luckshot based spamming instead of actual freon. And after a few maps the server will be empty ...
« Last Edit: March 25, 2023, 22:12 by zeus »

Krellsan

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2023, 07:47 »
Quote
The actual problem is giving a second (or 100th) chance, to the 6 categories above

And who are the judges?© lol. We banned hamish and mleko, and peronally i still not agree with that. Btw, BJ is banned for inappropriate name, or he just left like Rocktan, Bahia and many others?
I completely trust Dave here, but everyone else seems too much involved in their "tryhard achiever pro" issues. Didn't see him a while thou. Miss him ALOT.

Quote
5. Having a history of being toxic to multiple players, then trying to twist everything into "it's just a game" and "just a joke"
-> Playing the game, but verbally abusing the players.
That seems on me, when i used "kurwa" word and you kicked me. Just let it go, dude, i thought we figured that out.

and Pig

Quote
If I'm being an ass, just tell me! I do get annoyed when on a team of players that seem to be playing onlyTAM
Pig! You not an ass at all! You just get too involved in the game and want to win for yourself and your team so passionately that it becomes a challenge even to play with you on the same team. From my point of view, this is the reason why most ppl has blame on you. You demand from people more intelligence, more skill, more tactics than they can physically gave to you.

Dudes. All of you. Constant improvement did not meant evolving
You totally forgot about idea, heart and soul that Raj meant here, when he kept this server DemoOnly. Same reason that Krem did not improved Core server.
Total improvement meant that you need to go in higher league
You have added a numerous of maps, but only the most popular ones are played. You keep the assault mode, but left it abandoned because you are not interested in it. But remember how fun it was when we asked Nigel (where is he btw?) to change the map to a convoy after two or three onslaughts? And how huge was the online among the players all the time, and not just in the evenings?
I am aware that I am a big pain in the ass for many here and my words will simply not be accepted. But.

There will always be dissatisfied people.
Just think what you want. Maintain the atmosphere and population of the servers, or strive for achievement and sort the best.

Jozz

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2023, 11:12 »
"Pig! You not an ass at all! You just get too involved in the game and want to win for yourself and your team so passionately that it becomes a challenge even to play with you on the same team. From my point of view, this is the reason why most ppl has blame on you. You demand from people more intelligence, more skill, more tactics than they can physically gave to you."

 For my part, I notice that the game is much more fun when Pig is around - the thaw ratio goes way up from all players on both teams, teamplay improves, manners improve, and I don't spend 3/4 of the game frozen! Although there are several players who regularly improve the mood of the game (Thor, Daw, Hag, Kops, HS, and many more), Pig is MVP in a freon match!
 Long live the Pig, and happy birthday!

hagis

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2023, 11:39 »
I’m not a fan of more than 18 slots most of the time (16 is plenty) the odd game it’s ok
but too often is not fun game

sure you can have fun on high player count server but turn off reflect friendly fire as it’s too crowded to hit the enemy players

most played maps are good for 16 and when player could is set at 20 and it’s early people join toward end of game and mess up teams

Stealer

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2023, 15:18 »
Lol, my warm up game is usually DM with 30+ bots on Rankin, when I can remember to do a warm up without diving into an open server slot!
Wow, big thread I've missed...

I used to get swapped around a lot during matches, but I've got the 3spn setup so my enemy is always green, so not an issue.

Good feedback in thread, lots of different perspectives, we won't all agree on anything, but with some testing I'm sure it will be sound :)

I'm the same in game as in life, don't take anything seriously and laugh as much as possible + others  O:-)
« Last Edit: March 26, 2023, 15:20 by Stealer »
Stealer.T32

kops

Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2023, 12:02 »
If you are planning on changes / improvements to PIG3SPN then my proposed improvement is that admins CANNOT add slots and _HAVE TO_ wait in the spec like everyone else.

Well...we could auto kick a random player when joining like we used to on Titan but I fear that may cause an angry thread all of its own!

THOR`

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #56 on: March 28, 2023, 05:12 »
To be honest, one of the main reasons for me not really playing Freon anymore is the player count, never been a big fan of 12+ player matches, at that point I’d rather just hop in one of the other servers and get some games going, it’s proven difficult in the past however with so many Player slots/spec slots on the main server to encourage people over to the other servers.

Only other things I could live without is full health thaws and the resurrection combo, this can really make the rounds drag on, it’s Freon, cuddle your friends :)

Oh, and bots, I’d limit them to just a single bot for the first person who joins the server to shoot while waiting for people to join, anything beyond that and they just get in the way for the most part.

Other than the things that have already been mentioned there isn’t much else I’d change.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2023, 05:36 by THOR` »

Piglet

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2023, 11:17 »
We're sticking closer to 16 players at the moment.

For goose and contrast it's sometimes higher!

Just a few small updates today.

Goop directly on frozen enemy players will result in a red rather than a green splash.

Various code tidies and accessed-none fixes bloating logs - e.g. don't try and count accuracy for bots on stats that don't exist...


holyspam

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2023, 16:21 »

Various code tidies and accessed-none fixes bloating logs - e.g. don't try and count accuracy for bots on stats that don't exist...

Sometimes there is a clear solution to all problems :D

Piglet

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Re: Freon - balance, bio-camping, classic maps - others (discuss)
« Reply #59 on: April 04, 2023, 21:55 »
People were asking me to look at the Necrocombo priority, so I looked at the existing code and I don't think it's working at all as intended by the original author.

Simplified (as the current code has my addition to prefer non-being thawed playert)
Code: [Select]
ThawingBestRezTime = 100000
for(C = Level.ControllerList; C != None; C = C.NextController)
{
if(Misc_Player(C)!=None){
if(Misc_Player(C).LastRezTime<BestRezTime)
MyControllerList.Length = 0;

BestRezTime = Misc_Player(C).LastRezTime;
}

i = MyControllerList.Length;
MyControllerList.Length = i+1;
MyControllerList[i] = C;
}

return MyControllerList[Rand(MyControllerList.Length)];


That will reset the list of players to choose from each time one with an older last res time is found.

Ok. First time through the player1 was last res'd at time 400. The 400 is "best" time. Array resets and they are added as the only player in the array
Next time through the player2 was last res'd at time 300. The 300 is "best" time. Array resets and they are added as the only player in the array
Next time through the player3 was last res'd at time 620. The array does not reset but the player is added to the list along with player 2
Next time through the player4 was last res'd at time 300. 300 is still the best so the array does not reset but the player is added to the list along with player 2 and 3
Next time through the player4 was last res'd at time 920. The array does not reset but the player is added to the list along with player 2, 3 and 4
The code then chooses a random player 2, 3, 4, or 5 when the intention is to find player 2 and player 4 and choose randomly between them

I've added some new code to be a bit more sensible in which player is chosen:

Thawing priority, soon to be put on the server for a test

1. longest ago res'd dead players who've not left the game and rejoined
2. longest ago res'd frozen players (or rejoined players) not being actively thawed
3. players actively being thawed at the time necro used, longest ago res'd
4. dead bot (random)
5. frozen bot (random)
6. bot actively being thawed at the time necro used (random)

I've left the old code in (configurable at server side) and also left in lots of debug (configuable on/off at server side).
« Last Edit: April 04, 2023, 21:59 by Piglet »